User talk:Francis Schonken/List of borderline fictional characters

OK, so, the section labeled "only for people with a well proven historical background" has Amazons and Merlin on it? Excuse me, but there is no well-proven historical background for either of these, just some theories (and rather poor ones at that).

Hi DreamGuy,

• About Amazons: I think Herodotus, amongst others, describes this people in ancient Greece. Herodotus is as near as you get to "Historical record" in 5th century BC.
• Merlin: I was rather convinced by the Merlin (wizard) article at that time. If you think you can improve that article, no problem. For the time being the listing here is compatible with the wikipedia article.

--Francis Schonken 10:30, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PS: added some quotes by Herodotus about the Amazons to Wikiquote:Amazons --Francis Schonken 11:43, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Should Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha et al not be listed under 'Characters in mythical, legendary and religion-founding tales'? Also probably [[Lao Tzu], although I'm not 100% sure the historical evidence for him is strong enough (but it probably is)... and many (most?) saints? --Oolong 13:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Real people appearing as themselves in a fictional context

1. Mozart and Salieri (as themselves) in Amadeus
2. Virgil and Beatrice (as themselves) in La divina commedia

Do these people really belong on this list? Isn't there a whole other list for entries like this, List of real people appearing in fictional context? -Silence 09:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This is not a NPOV issue, a {{Mergesectionto}} issue at most. For the time being I applied a wikipedia:summary style type of approach (as I had already done for the "real life characters" in another section). Let's see whether that works. Maybe Salieri is still missing from the other list, it would be a good idea to have him there anyway, etc... --Francis Schonken 01:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Uh?

"(only for characters that have as well a proven historical reality as a proven fictionality!)"

What in the name of god does this mean? What makes Merlin and the Amazons "historically real" (where has their existence been a "proven historical reality"? what standards for "proof" are we using? and isn't all this just original research anyway?) and "fictional" (they come from, or were popularized by, legends and folklore, not works of fiction, ergo they're mythological/legendary, rather than fictional, in origin)? If you're suggesting that they originally derive from historical sources, than wouldn't Jesus qualify here as well? I'm not sure this section is a good idea; fictionality, reality, and "proof" are all complex and contentious words. The requirements for listing will need to be clarified if this information is to be kept. -Silence 19:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• added definitions;
• added references to show that the Amazons correspond to these definitions (I'll still make them more precise when I have a bit more time to point to the exact passages in Herodotus, etc...);
• removed Merlin from the list: at a prior reading of the Merlin (wizard) article he had appeared (apart from in legendary litterature/poems) also to be in historical works generally accepted as serious. This is however not the case for Historia Regum Britanniae (apparently the earliest source), which is more often considered fictional than historical: so I could not make Merlin fit in the definitions I had made (which indeed are very strict for this subsection of the list). --Francis Schonken 01:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Fictional characters (partly) identified with historical figures

Just a note.... Hiram Abiff is not really identified with Hiram I ... the Masonic drama has a different character named "Hiram, King of Tyre". The Masonic Hiram Abiff is probably based upon a seperate Huram or Hiram, who is mentioned in the bible as being a craftsman/smith sent by Hiram I to King Solomon to help with the Temple.Blueboar (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to improve the page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)