Talk:Baritone horn

important players?

Where did it go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.43.78 (talk) 03:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

confusing definitions?

Maybe it's me, but I find this passage confusing:

"The baritone horn - a saxhorn - is closer in relation to the trombone and trumpet with a cylindrical bore. The euphonium is closer in nature to the horn and tuba with its conical bore."

Isn't that backwards? A saxhorn has a conical bore. (The entry on the saxhorn says it has a "tapered bore". I am assuming that is the same as a "conical bore") Thus, if the baritone is a saxhorn, how can it be closer to instruments with a cylindrical bore? Also, if the euphonium has a conical bore, doesn't it become, by defintion, a saxhorn? Admittedly, even when I played them I never distinguished the terminology, and I understand that the British and US terms differ.

The first paragraph states that the baritone horn has a conical bore. However, later in the article, it says that "The baritone has a smaller and more cylindrical bore." To my knowledge, the baritone horn has a cylindrical bore, while the euphonium has a conical bore, and that is one of the main differences between the two. Andrewtoering (talk) 04:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I took out the image request tag on this page because someone has added a photo to the article. Jeffmatt 07:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

"In the UK a baritone horn...is a bass Saxhorn in Bb....The baritone is a mellow instrument in concert pitch." Isn't there something wrong here - how can it be Bb and concert pitch? TKA

No: Two different concepts are involved. The "Bb" refers to the fact that the instrument is tuned in such a way that the fundamental tone you get when no valves are pressed is a Bb (the next two harmonics are then the fifth of the Bb scale, and then Bb an octave up from the original). The "concert pitch" part refers to the fact that the baritone is not a transposing instrument (so an A on a baritone is an A in concert pitch). Contrast this to the trumpet where a C played on the trumpet sounds as a Bb in concert pitch. Anyway, the article could potentially clarified, but it's not incorrect. JPrice

Ancient times?

"It is one of the few saxhorns that was played in ancient times (...)"

According to Saxhorn, that instrument was invented in the 1830s, so one can hardly claim that they were used in "ancient times" (unless you use a perverse definition of the phrase). Can someone who knows about the subject fix this? Hairy Dude 01:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Euphonium/Baritone Horn similarities

I play what I believe to be a Euphonium but what I keep hearing called a Baritone Horn, so I was happy to find out that they are different.

I read the cornet article and it had a subhead dedicated to similarities to the trumpet: could this be done for baritone horn/euphonium?

Differences between Baritone Horn and Euphonium

As a baritone player in a British brass band, these are my views on the subject: When viewed with the flugel horn, tenor (E flat) horn, and the EE flat and BB flat tubas (or basses in brass band terminology), it is obvious that the baritone is more a horn and the euphonium more a tuba. In orchestral circles the euphonium is known as a tenor tuba. The sound produced by the baritone is similar to a horn, while the sound from a euphonium is more of a tuba sound.

Keith Eves, 21 March 2006.

Range question

The range as shown on the right-hand-side box appears to show a range of F1 through F5. Surely, this cannot be correct! I would put the common range of the three-valve non-compensating instrument shown at E2 through perhaps D5 (or a bit higher if the performer is up to the job). The E2 will usually be quite sharp on a non-compensating instrument, as will the F above it.

Chuck Guzis, 8 Feb. 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.210.31.26 (talk) 19:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You are in fact right, I play the baritone a bit, and most of my pieces include notes as high as a B, or even a Middle C. So yes, the range is incorrect. I will try to find another image to replace the current. 1bevingtonco (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The range shown is correct; the notes may not be commonly played but most advanced players will be able to play them. The range is the same as that of a straight tenor trombone. Please don't alter this.Benny the wayfarer (talk) 00:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, because most of my notes in pieces I play tend to waver around the higher pitches than the lower ones, but I won't altar the range. 1bevingtonco (talk) 20:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, do you mean that the notes themselves waver, they wobble in other words, or that that's where the notes are? i find higher notes hard , but i suppose it takes time and practise and the chops do get stronger eventually. listen to Don Drummond with the Skatalites for high range! what a trombonist.Benny the wayfarer (talk) 22:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Higher notes are indeed harder, because they require faster air to execute the pitch, but I find that the notes are rather higher than lower, that's all. 1bevingtonco (talk) 18:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Chuck, the low end should be E2. A normal, 3 valve baritone can only go down to that E (same as a straight, tenor trombone). Although Pedal tones are possible, they do not count as normal notes. There are 2 kinds of 4-valve baritones, one with the 4th valve next to the other 3, and one with the 4th valve on the bottom. I'm not sure exactly how much the 4th valve affects the range, but the range should be changed to show a normal baritone range and a note about 4-valve baritones and their range. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.36.79.10 (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Overall, the Brass instrument pages are inconsistent how they denote the range. Look for example at the Tenor (Alto) Horn article.

• Some of the Brass instruments' ranges are given as the written range, with the transposition listed beneath
• Other instruments' range diagrams are given in concert pitch, avoiding mentioning transposition
• Some instruments' range diagrams include pedal tones and some do not

Jwoehr (talk) 04:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I add this purely as an amateur player, but the range for the baritone is ridiculously understated. A decent player can cover the same range as a trumpet, all the way up to the Bb above high C (double C in treble clef). As a lead player in a senior drum and bugle corps, our parts regularly sat above the treble clef staff, or an F above middle C and higher, not to mention the parts which I arranged for the horn. A decent, practiced baritone player should be able to easily cover two octaves, up to three for the pro-level folks. Then again, I could just be misinterpreting how it is that the range is stated in these articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.199.113.40 (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

While recognizing the problem with expressing the range of the Baritone, I respectfully disagree with removing the range image as was done in the most recent edit. It's better for the reader that we express some notion of range - certainly the fundamental at the low end of the range was correct - than to eliminate the range description with no substitution. Shall we put the old image back until someone provides something more accurate and well-sourced? JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that some notion is better than none, and restored the image, adding a fact tag. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

So "Completely wrong" is better than nothing? The range is ridiculous as the commenter noted on Feb 8 2010. The highest note on a baritone horn is at least double C, and then notes up to high G (right atop the staff) are easy to play for a high school baritone player. 99.98.221.223 (talk) 01:20, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

You have a point that this needs work. Firstly, the diagram, the double low F octavo a basso represents a fundamental. There are conventions in music typography for representing brass fundamentals below the main playing range. The way it's represented here is not in accordance with those conventions. Note that the range here is expressed in symphony concert pitch, not high school C transpositional notation.

Secondly, the range is never stated in the article! I believe the diagram is more or less correct about the top of the range. The Baritone second partial with no valves pressed is concert B♭ on the second line from the bottom of the bass clef. The eighth partial ditto is B♭ in the center of the treble clef. It should be easy, as you say, for a reasonably practiced amateur to reach a fifth above that ... i.e. the F at the top of the treble clef ... which is precisely what the diagram shows for the top of the range.

I will edit the range into the text. If anyone schooled in producing the diagrams can make one which makes it clearer that the low low low F is a fundamental, not a main playing range note, they should do so. JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

valves

i dont understand the difference in wich the valves change th sound —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.200.215 (talk) 09:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

ok so the valves change the way the air flows, BUT to truly get into the upper and lower registers, you must tighten(to get higher) or loosen(to get lower) your lips.--24.216.121.135 (talk) 18:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand this

"Within the high school and college marching band activity, marching baritones are nearly always present to facilitate concert baritone (and sometimes euphonium) players. In some ensembles, trombones are not used, in which case baritones also provide an alternative for trombonists who can't bring their instrument onto the marching field. Since many high school baritone and euphonium players migrate from the trumpet, the instruments of choice have always been in the key of B♭."

This last Marching Band section seems confusing to me. When are trombones not used? No citation. Do trombone players really have to double on baritone in some bands? How common is this? And do many high school players really migrate from trumpet? Not in my band during the 1960s. And how does that explain the Eb Alto horn? The paragraph has the sound of one person's personal experience. If I was going to be bold, I'd eliminate the whole paragraph, but I'm not a professional music educator, so I don't know the answers to my own questions for sure.

MarkBul (talk) 17:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is indeed pretty obscure. What really should have been said is that the Baritone is a valved and (in its marching-band version) nicely portable and playable-while-marching instrument that can substitute in marching bands both for fancier orchestral baritone horns (expensive) and for the trombone. Jwoehr (talk) 04:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Quality of article

Overall, I find this article to be of poor quality. It dwells way too much on the naming issue, repeats itself on the Drum and Bugle Corps matter, states the range of the Baritone tendentiously and in a manner inconsistent with the description of the range of its sibling, the alto horn and gives the reader very little information about the instrument itself and its construction and technique. Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed the following sentence: "Since many high school baritone and euphonium players migrate from the trumpet, the instruments of choice have always been in the key of B♭." It had been edited back and forth between "trumpet" and "trombone" and the last log message was effectively an argument to the issue. Since there is no citation supporting the assertion, and it adds nothing to the understanding of the Baritone (Sax)horn, it should stay out maybe? JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 16:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

One edit by an IP with no explanation, which was reverted, isn't quite a tendentious "back and forth." I'll grant that it's WP:OR as it is now; this is mostly me speaking as some with a music ed degree and as a former band teacher. It's common US practice to switch people from trumpet (which is usually easier to convince people to play in 5th grade as beginners so you have lots of them). It's also a good way to deal with a middle school trumpet player who just got braces; they often have an easier time with the bigger mouthpiece. I'll dig out some of my old issues of the Instrumentalist and textbooks and find a citation. I disagree with your assertion that how people learn an instrument is irrelevant to the article; common teaching practice seems quite relevant. WeisheitSuchen (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Most esteemed WeisheitSuchen, I think you're correct and all danger of edit ping-pong will probably go away if you stick a citation in there as you say! Glad to have had a hand in spurring you onwards to encyclopedic research :) JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 18:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Which is Which

I play the Baritone Horn in my school band. My friend has a baritone horn with the valves on the side, but mine are on the top. Is either one of these a euphonium, or are they both baritones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.81.80 (talk) 22:24, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

They are probably both euphoniums, take note that the euphonium has a conical bore and a baritone horn has a cylindrical bore, not valve difference. Also schools these days normally don't use baritone horns as before. A euphonium with the valve on the side is referred as a compensating euphonium which is a more professional model. Antonio López ^(talk) 04:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The reality of modern instruments is that they are not purely baritone or euphonium in most cases. They are hybrids built to cost-effectively produce what the designer believes to be the characteristic sound of the name he or she is aiming for. The research of Renold Schilke and others into the physics of brass instrument tone production tell us that it is not just the purity of conical progression, or cylindrical extension, that define the timbre of an instrument but where such occurs along the length of the resonating tubing (nodal points] and the ductility of the metal. While a Euphonium is considered to be a conical bore (at least 2/3 in the vernacular understanding) and a baritone only 1/3 conical and mostly cylindrical, the only continuous 100% conical bore horn built was called a “conical bore baritone” by its maker, E.A. Couturier.

In general, a tenor horn has a long cylindrical OR only slightly conical bore that results in a very narrow diameter bell riser terminating in a small diameter bell flare. It is the closest descendent of its roman field horn ancestors. The baritone is the next variant, using mostly a cylindrical bore, step-changing up in places to a somewhat narrow bell riser that increases its rate of taper geometrically as it approaches a final fairly large diameter bell flare. Finally, the euphonium is a mostly conical bore that results in a fairly large diameter bell riser and a lesser expansion required at the end to produce a bell flare the same size as the baritone. These are the “ideal” structural differences. Valve number and hand placement is a design choice for comfort of the player, not a defining characteristic.

In terms of tone and style, there are two schools of playing that tend to be associated with the naming of the horn. The dominant one presently, which I would call the British euphonium school, is characterized by a dark, deep tone with suppression of the high frequency aspects of articulation resulting in bluntly rounded attack and even tones where energy is imparted from color and tonal progression. The other, which dominated a century ago and is associated with the bands of the time of brass virtuosos on cornet(Clarke) and trombone(Pryor) in the US, is what I would call the alpine baritone school, representative of the traditional style and timbre of town band baritones in Bohemia, Germany and Northern Italy. This sound is characterized by a brighter tone, strong articulation, greater dynamic contrast, a heavier vibrato, deriving its “passion” from dynamic contrast, the force of articulation, and dramatic use of resonance and vibrato variations. The current day British masters exemplify the sound most often associated with Euphonium, while Leonard Falcone and others who played in the other style are most often associated with the Baritone. (By physical characteristics Falcone’s horn was a baritone).

For the vast majority of students, the horns they will first play will be a hybrid, probably leaning toward euphonium (unlike the baritones those of us who played school horns in the 60s and 70s had). But it will be the style that they learn to play in that will define which instrument they play. When they reach a sufficient level of proficiency and musicianship to understand the voice and function of the separate euphonium (tenor tuba) and baritone (tenor horn) parts in older British Military Band repertoire, they may choose to buy a professional horn that is built to support the style in which they play. Only then will the structural distinctions really be significant.

(For any reader wondering, I play a custom Yamaha euphonium, in more the style of a baritone, as Leonard Falcone taught me). The difference between baritone and euphonium is which we choose to be as much as finding a horn that supports that. --Rwberndt (talk) 19:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Size

There is no indication of its size, i think some physical dimensions would be helpful. 80.42.202.21 (talk) 19:14, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The article states, "Although both baritone and euphonium produce partials of the B♭ harmonic series, and both have a nine-foot-long main tube ..." JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 01:57, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

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Playable keys

I looked at this page and found it very confusing. The fact I was looking for - the baritone is not chromatic, but capable of playing the notes C, Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A and therefore has all the notes for the keys appearing two fifths either side of B flat. Namely C, F, Bb, Eb and Ab with decreasing numbers of notes in other keys. Tradimus (talk) 02:56, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Although the article is less than clear on the topic, my understanding is that the baritone horn is capable of playing chromatically, like any other brass instrument with three valves. Can you go into further detail about the "decreasing numbers of notes in other keys"? Just plain Bill (talk) 10:38, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Versatility relies on skill of the player, rther than the instrument. please delete my comment Tradimus (talk) 16:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)