Talk:Law and Justice

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This article was nominated for merging with United Right (Poland) on 17 June 2020. The result of the discussion was oppose.

Far right

Can someone explain to me why, with so many academic sources,^[1] the article does not call the party far-right? What are you waiting for to do it? Hidolo (talk) 00:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Simple. Because PiS is not a far right party. We have a policy on due and undue weight. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What? According to that same Wikipedia policy that you cite, it says that if there is a majority that affirms this, it should be added to the article. Also, according to whom PIS is not a far-right party? According to you? Does there have any valid argument for throwing away all the academic sources that determine that the party is far right? You are definitely implying that what you want to do is an arbitrary conception of reality. It doesn't seem like a good action to me coming from a user who has been in Wikipedia for more than 18 years. It's a delirium. 2800:2503:101:3BD8:A600:4969:B37B:F54A (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's my comment. Hidolo (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not enough to quote academic sources, and primary ones on top of that. The quoted sources, ideally secondary, must reflect scholarly consensus, which certainly is not on the far-right label.

For now, the tertiary source Britannica terms PiS as "centre-right" [1]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. That is the only one current source that described the party as centre-right. So I think it is a minority opinion. Hidolo (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That source is talking about the party in 2007 - that does not necessarily have bearing on what the party is like today. Center-right is an uncommon and unfitting label. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a great variety of sources which call this party far-right:

https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20231017-four-questions-about-poland-s-election-results.cfm

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/31/1222337095/in-a-year-of-gains-for-the-far-right-in-europe-poland-became-the-outlier

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/06/magazine/the-party-that-wants-to-make-poland-great-again.html

https://www.dw.com/en/polish-media-conflict-pits-government-against-far-right/a-67884162

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1230673951/poland-new-government-polish-news-media

I am honestly somewhat surprised; usually it is the left on this website which has biased calls on ideology and then mobs the dissenters. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Law and Justice is a right-wing party with centre-right and far-right elements and factions. Therefore, it's only logical to put right-wing and maybe add factions. Odideum (talk) 20:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any source? Hidolo (talk) 22:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also consider that being a populist party their position on political spectrum may change as those parties tend to radicalise themselves more and more. YBSOne (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. This party is commonly described as such.

(and it's also kind of corrupt, but that's besides the point) JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^
- Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.
- Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.
- Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.
- Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.
- Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.
- "Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

Add "social conservatism" to ideology.

PiS is a social conservative party, outlined by their anti LGBTQIA+ stance. Is this enough to warrant adding it to the ideology? 121.45.107.215 (talk) 01:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Populist right not economical left

Most of the sources seem to point to "welfare" and "social transfers" as if the right-wing populist party is interested in welfare and not bribing potential voters, conservative, married and multi-children. YBSOne (talk) 10:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is a right-wing populist party. And it is also a party that is described as "economically left-wing" or "left-leaning", so it should be reflected. And it would be hard to argue that Reuters, Centre for European Reform, the The Routledge Handbook of East European Politics or Stephen Park Turner are unreliable sources. So we simply reflect what they say, as a opinion that a fair portion of political theorists hold.

As for what would make Law and Justice unique in comparison to other right-wing populist parties, it would be that its economic orientation is something that it absorbed from a leftist party Samoobrona RP. This is something that Cédric Koch argues in Varieties of populism and the challenges to Global Constitutionalism: Dangers, promises and implications for example. "Bribing voters" seem to be your own assessment of the party, which is WP:OR, I'm afraid. Brat Forelli🦊 14:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

populists tend to lie about their intentions. YBSOne (talk) 14:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... Like every politician. That's WP:OR. We rely on sources and what they explicitly say, and not our own interpretations/conclusions from them. Brat Forelli🦊 17:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

not every politician is a populist. There are politicians that care for welfare for the people's sake. I think that this is just a copy paste from far-right rulebook to call an inconvenient right-wing party a "left-wing" (see how many times this article was messed with) or at least "economically left-wing" to distance themselves from other failed right-wing populist parties. That's my opinion. YBSOne (talk) 19:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it should be far-left in position and communist in the infobox, actually. PiS rule clearly represents the most communist period since Gierek.

Okay, seriously though, it's weird that it has no mention of anything economically leftist considering it's the most economically leftist party in the Sejm besides, I guess, Razem? Polish kurd (talk) 21:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not communist. This is actually what far-right want's you to believe that everything not far-right is communist. show any RS that it is a communist party. YBSOne (talk) 21:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since when are conservatives far-left? YBSOne (talk) 21:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, let's cut out the rant. Let's assume that by "conservatism" we mean social conservatism, which is the position represented by Law and Justice.

Can social conservatives be left-wing? Yes, they can, as shown by Direction – Social Democracy and the Social Democratic Party of Romania. Can they be far-left? Yes! Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance, Communist Party of the Russian Federation and the Frente Obrero are examples of parties that are socially conservative but are also described as far-left.

When we look at political science journals, this phenomenon is known as "left-wing authoritarianism". Bridging Left and Right? How Sahra Wagenknecht Could Change the German Party Landscape by Sarah Wagner, L. Constantin Wurthmann & Jan Philipp Thomeczek define left-wing authoritarianism as holding "left-wing economic positions while being authoritarian, conservative and nationalist on cultural policy issues".

As far as Law and Justice goes, it is described as economically left-wing in political science journals, ones which do meet the WP:RS criteria, and therefore it is a view to be included. An example would be Pariahs or Partners? Patterns of Government Formation with Radical Right Parties in Central and Eastern Europe, 1990-2020 by Oliver Kossack, which states: "In socio-economic terms, PiS positioned itself on the left." Another example would be Queer(in)g Poland in the 21st Century: How Was It at the Beginning of the Millennium? Introduction to This Special Issue on Queer Culture and the LGBTQ+ Movement in Poland by Urszula Chowaniec, Ewa Mazierska & Richard Mole, who write: "In autumn 2005 Jarosław Kaczynski’s party won the parliamentary election with his party Prawo i Sprawiedliwość (Peace and Justice), which was economically left-wing, but socially on the right: a mixture which has ensured its continuing political success." Brat Forelli🦊 22:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cool and all but they are foremost national conservatists. YBSOne (talk) 13:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quick quote that basically defines PiS as national conservatist party and not social:

"Ideologically, national conservatism is not a uniform philosophy but adherents have broadly expressed support for nationalism, patriotism, assimilationism and monoculturalism. At the same time there is expressed opposition to internationalism, racial politics, multiculturalism and globalism.[25][26][27] National conservatives adhere to a form of cultural nationalism that emphasizes the preservation of national identity as well as cultural identity. As a result, many favor assimilation into the dominant culture, restrictions on immigration and strict law and order policies.[6][5]

National conservative parties support traditional family values, gender roles and the public role of religion,[5][28] being critical of the separation of church and state. According to the Austrian political scientist Sieglinde Rosenberger, "national conservatism praises the family as a home and a center of identity, solidarity, and tradition".[28] It opposes the "1968 agenda" of gender-related emancipation.[24]: 1099 " YBSOne (talk) 13:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] 
Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.
Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.
Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.
Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.
Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.
"Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

[2] Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.

[3] Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.

[4] Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.

[5] Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.

[6] Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.

[7] "Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

[1]