Talk:Green papaya salad

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Archive 1

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Costume 2

In this section let's discuss only the costume and sources that would support that it's needed for readers to understand this dish. Valereee (talk) 16:18, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You wanted me to post my response to you but the chat is now closed. Where do you want it? Isan1985 (talk) 01:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of the article is papaya salad. In 2021, there was an internationally recognized, historical event where papaya salad was featured in the form a country's costume.

"Costumes worn by pageant contestants were inspired by their countries’ myths, folklore, festivals, and apparently, even foods”.

The costume was designed by Saykeo Sittavong of Laos, who said of the piece, “Tammakhoung (Papaya Salad) is our national dish. It is sweet and sour, spicy and salty and it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food.”

– Source: [https://laotiantimes.com/2021/12/01/miss-grand-laos-spices-up-pageant-with-papaya-salad-costume/

Food can define culture. Trivia and facts are also important. Readers being exposed to this information will gain a better insight on the importance papaya salad has on the region. Isan1985 (talk) 02:51, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If people take issue with the costume being mention in the lead then we should create a new section under "cultural reference" as Paul_012 previously suggested. Isan1985 (talk) 02:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Isan1985Readers being exposed to this information will gain a better insight on the importance papaya salad has on the region. You'll have to find someone other than you saying something like that.

Even the costume designer's quote doesn't say that. He says "is our national dish" and "it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food". Nothing about how the costume provides a statement on the importance of papaya salad to Lao culture.
And even if he had said that, we can't use a quote from him to assess the importance of his own work. Period.

And, no, trivia is not important here on Wikipedia, and not every fact is included, per WP:ONUS. We include information that other people have discussed. Has anyone but the designer ever said anything like, "This costume shows how important papaya salad is in Laos"? Has anyone ever given it anything but a brief mention? If not, it's trivia. Valereee (talk) 12:04, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Despite my disagreement you obliviously seem to have Wikipedia's policies on your side.

However, I still believe that the designer is well within his right to speak about his work, as most primary sources do, and not jeopardizes his credibility or reliability. He is not making an assessment about the quality or importance of his own work. Nothing from his statement shows that there is potential for personal, financial, or political gain. He is a designer talking about his inspiration, which is more reliable than an independent person speculating upon it.

Context also matter! He is not asserting anything new or unsupported. He is talking about something that everyone already know about his country’s food and how it became the inspiration for his design.

It was a journalist covering the event, who observed that each country wore costumes inspired by their countries’ myths, folklore, festivals, and apparently, even foods. The source and context, here, I would argue is independent and reliable.

But if the Consensus has already been reached. Then I am going to move on and not waste anyone else's time. Thank you. Isan1985 (talk) 09:10, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Origin

In this section let's discuss only the dish's origins and sources for that. Valereee (talk) 16:19, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thai version of papaya salad on CNN GO

In this section let's discuss only "Thai variation on CNN GO" and sources that would support that it's needed for readers to understand this dish. Isan1985 (talk) 03:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Thai variation som tam has been listed at number 46 on World's 50 most delicious foods compiled by CNN Go in 2011 and 2018" http://www.cnngo.com/explorations/eat/worlds-50-most-delicious-foods-067535 and https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/world-best-food-dishes/index.html

This is another great trivia about papaya salad. I don't believe it is appropriate being mention in the lead. We should find a more appropriate place for it. Maybe in the body of the article as Paul_012 suggest? Isan1985 (talk) 03:38, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It speaks about the acclaim of the dish, so I don't see why it couldn't be in the lead. Exactly where in the body of the article do you want to move it to? –Turaids (talk) 08:52, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with creating a new section for all that information but it seems like you guys have decided. Isan1985 (talk) 08:33, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I too don't think this is probably important enough for the lead. I think it could go into maybe a description section? I do think it adds to the reader's understanding of the dish that it's considered very delicious. And the source is independent, so it's usable. Valereee (talk) 12:14, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

National dish of Laos

(moving from costume section)

Is it common for the Lao to dress up as the green papaya salad? If not, that might not be the most relevant example of describing its significance in Laos. And surely there has to be a better source for the salad being the national dish of Laos than some fashion designer. –Turaids (talk) 08:52, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee (talk) 12:05, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Turaids, I moved this comment from the costume section because we're getting too many different discussions. Let's focus on the costume in that section.

I don't think there's any question it's one of the national dishes of Laos, per this article from Deutsche Welle. That doesn't mean it's not also a national dish of other countries. Valereee (talk) 12:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've added to the lead and the history section that it's a national dish of both Laos and Thailand. Valereee (talk) 12:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not questioning the fact that the salad is considered a national dish in Laos, but rather that it makes no sense to quote a fashion designer on that. –Turaids (talk) 20:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Turaids. Valereee (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I never claim that the costume or the designer's statement is definitive proof that papaya salad is Laos’ National Dish – I only attempted to summarized a Journalist's observations and interview with a primary source about his inspiration for the papaya salad costume as representation of his country's food. I was content with the original edit, before it was deleted by Valereee. I am even with Paul_012 about creating a new section.

My contention (see edit history for how we got here in the first place):

1) Both trivia facts are important to understanding the dish. a) CNNGo (Readers: "must be very delicious") and b) Papaya Salad costume (Readers: "Lao people pick this food to represent them"). I have no problem and would not delete any of them.

2) If trivia facts are subject for deletion then why is Valereee engaging in editorial bias and not applying the rule equally. Isan1985 (talk) 08:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Isan1985, I'm saying the fact a food has been called, in a reliable and independent source, one of the most delicious in the world, is not trivia. I am disagreeing with you that this is trivia. The article is about the dish. The source is talking about an important aspect of the dish: that it is considered one of the 50 most delicious dishes in the world.

How are you seeing it's considered delicious as a trivial piece of information about a food? The way a food tastes is probably the most important aspect of that food. Valereee (talk) 12:37, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In fact I'm talking myself into it actually belonging in the lead after all lol... Valereee (talk) 12:37, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I see what you're saying about it being in the lead. But I would suggest it say "Papaya salad has been listed at number 46 on World's 50 most delicious foods compiled by CNN Go in 2011 and 2018" instead. I am looking at the links and the sources did not say, "The Thai variation". Isan1985 (talk) 15:38, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They all say "46. Som tam, Thailand...A traditional Thai dish you can't resist...To prepare Thailand's most famous salad" so I'm not sure how that's not saying the Thai variation? I'm not married to Thailand being mentioned in the lead, though. We could say 'a variation' or something. Not really all that important that it's the Thai version. Valereee (talk) 19:27, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns about Laos nationalism, place of origin, tone, and bias on the Green Papaya Salad page

This page is specifically about Green papaya salad, not Tam maak hung. It's important to note that this dish is not only found in Laos, as it is also eaten in Myanmar, Cambodia, Malaysia, and Vietnam, each with their own unique name for the dish. Additionally, it's worth mentioning that the term "maak hung" is of Khmer origin, which further supports the idea that the dish is not exclusive to Laos. 2001:FB1:88:A95C:C189:BC7B:98D8:BE5D (talk) 08:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The issue at hand is the origin of the salad, not where it is popular. Where it is popular is a different matter than its origin. Its popularity should not preclude that wp:reliable sources state it likely originated in Laos. It is also eaten in many English speaking countries, which makes it wp:notable and enabling its mention in the English-language Wikipedia. Areas the salad is popular in might be of note and could be added with citations. Adakiko (talk) 08:45, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, the page is about Green Papaya Salad, not Tam Maak Hung. The problem is that what you consider to be 'reliable sources' have only made a claim that Thai som tam 'possibly' originated from Laos, which has no evidence. Myanmar also has a green papaya salad called 'သင်္ဘောသီးသုပ်', as well as Malaysia and Cambodia. 2001:FB1:88:A95C:AD7B:54CB:7BDA:CB74 (talk) 08:55, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia reflects what reliables sources say and some of those sources saying that the salad "possibly" originated in Laos is definitely better than no sources saying anything about it originating in Thailand. I do agree with you that attributing most of the existing sources to green papaya salad's Laotian origin is very questionable. The first source just lists "National Dishes" and writes that "Green papaya salad (somtam) and sticky rice are a combination that is genuinely Laotian." or in other words eating green papaya salad together with sticky rice is characteristic of Laotians. The second source simply calls it "Laotian national dish". The third source only lists green papaya salad as something to try in Laos. The fourth source is the only one clearly stating that the green papaya salad is "actually Laotian in origin", but a single newspaper article is a far cry from a consensus. –Turaids (talk) 22:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]