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WikiProject iconWikiProject Fraternities and Sororities is part of the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Greek Life on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies, and their members. If you would like to participate, you can edit the page attached to this page, visit the project page, where you can join the project, and/or contribute to the discussion.Fraternities and SororitiesWikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and SororitiesTemplate:WikiProject Fraternities and SororitiesFraternities and Sororities articles
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Scope of the Project, Notability Rules (clarification), and Syntax for the Watchlist are linked here: Watchlist Talk Page. A discussion on the types of chapter status is here: F&S Project talk page, Archive #7.

Redlinked universities and colleges

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I have updated the master list of institutions that are red-linked in chapter lists for fraternities, sororities, honor societies, and other groups covered by our WP. This list is alphabetical by school name and includes all known associated groups in that single entry. There are also some sources to aid in creating articles for these redlinks, as identified by various editors. Items can be removed from the list, once an article is created. Rublamb (talk) 00:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Substandard chapter lists

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This section is transcluded from /Substandard chapter lists. (edit | history)

This is a working list of articles with substandard or missing chapter lists, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Zeta Psi chapters, List of Beta Theta Pi chapters or the Alpha Delta Phi Society. If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed. Jax MN (talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note that this list had been much longer; editors have reposted it after removing the completed projects. Jax MN (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rublamb (talk) 07:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Substandard lists of notable members

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This section is transcluded from /Substandard notable member lists. (edit | history)

This is a working list of articles with substandard, bloated or missing lists of notable members, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Alpha Omicron Pi members or List of Alpha Delta Phi members, though each of these could be expanded with a chapter location field. As another example, Phi Kappa Theta does a nice job with their notable members list, with the addition of some color title lines. We may opt to use this styling as a way of breaking up a wall of text.

Standard content for a member list is name, chapter and initiation year, notability, and references. Long list are usually divided into careers such as academia, art and architecture, business, entertainment, government (non-political) law, literature and journalism, military, politics, religion, science and medicine, technology, and sports.

If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed.

To avoid vanity listings, on these page's Talk pages, it would be helpful to add a list of rules for inclusion, as discussed here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fraternities_and_Sororities/Archive_6#Notable_members_2. Jax MN (talk) 17:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many GLO member lists are simple lists of names. This is just a start.

  • List of Alpha Delta Phi members, needs a location field (to clarify, does each line need a location of that chapter? or skip this?)
  • List of Alpha Omicron Pi members, needs a location field (to clarify, does each line need a location of that chapter? or skip this?)
  • List of Acacia members, alphabetize lists by last name, alphabetize sections, needs references
  • Delta Zeta, inset list of names, ought to merit a list article with table.
  • List of Eta Kappa Nu members, simple list, few references, needs chapters and locations. As a point of clarification, for honor societies that award membership as honoraries (~mid-career) it seems we should simply note that they are an honorary member of the national society if they were not initiated into a specific chapter.
  • List of Sigma Alpha Epsilon members, needs table(s), needs references

Cleanup project

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The main list of infobox issues can be found at Category:Fraternity articles with infobox fraternity issues.

I have these here from other discussions so they are easier to find:

  1. "| coat of arms or "| crest" where "| image_size" is null or missing. (The size parameter is manually adjusted, depending on actual image size.) - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing image size (7) --Done. Note that I downsized somewhat the crests and other infobox graphics, too many of which had crept so large that they were inadvertently expanding the infobox width. Of course, if someone wants to see a larger image of the crest, they can click on it, or go to the original source. Flag images are now typically 120px, and member badges appear about the size of an actual badge, or maybe up to 20% larger. Jax MN (talk) 22:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "| founded" where the tag structure "{{Start date and age|yyyy|mm|dd}}" is NOT used - tracked at petscan DONE
  3. missing |affiliation= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing affiliation (2)
  4. missing |type= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing type (0)
  5. missing |scope= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing scope (0)
  6. missing |member badge= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing member badge (736)
  7. missing |chapters= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing chapters (10)
  8. missing |members= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing members (685)
  9. missing |website= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing website (86)
  10. Missing short descriptions. - tracked at petscan DONE
  11. Orphans - via WP Orphanage search and petscan DONE
  12. missing |status= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing status (0)
  13. Article name does not match infobox - DONE
  14. Missing infobox - DONE, if had WP F&S Rublamb (talk) 00:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)}[reply]
  15. Missing country
  16. Unreferenced - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
  17. Notability - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
  18. Primary sources - tracked at petscan
  19. One source - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
  20. Has bibliography but lacks inline citations - tracked at petscan
  21. Needs color boxes (Helpful link, has colors, flags and, addresses of Baltic, Scandinavian, German, and Polish fraternities)

Rublamb (talk) 01:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fraternities and Soroities Guideline

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Is it possible to make a comprehensive guideline article for how a standard fraternity or sorority page should look? I've found Wikipedia:College_and_university_article_advice to be incredibly helpful. Of course each page would have a level of uniqueness to it, but just as any university there are some standard characteristics that should be recommended.

Please let me know if I am missing something on the project page, but I currently do not find the templates section to be sufficient. Pancake621 (talk) 18:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pancake621. I note you recently joined the Project. We welcome you. Reading your question above I was intrigued to note the support document for college and university articles, originally written back in 2007. I'm sure it has been heavily used. It was thus a factor in the decade when most of those articles were created. We could certainly use it for our efforts to finish writing articles about dormant schools. Meanwhile, as to your query about a similar style and syntax guide for fraternity and sorority articles, while we may have benefited from such, years ago, alas, I don't know that anyone ever created a similar guide. However, much of the direction you seek is here in the archived TALK pages of this Project page, with a few key items pinned to the top. We track substandard chapter list pages, missing school pages, and discuss the details of stylistic points here. Several of the most active project editors operate with a strong consensus gained from these earlier discussions, but that doesn't really help you if you don't have a ready-reference.
Because this is 2024, and many of the GLO articles are much advanced from their origin as stubs, and the many list pages we track are quite improved from fifteen years ago, I'm less inclined to write this document. However, many points from our archived discussions could be summarized or hyperlinked to quickly form the framework of a new guidance article. Are you interested in working on it?
Yours was a fair question, and I realize that, had we had such a document a decade ago when I was beginning to work on these articles, perhaps we could have corralled other new editors to the Project, and maybe avoided various AfD battles. A guideline like this would have been a solid framework for consensus. Still, we're far more organized and these articles have been much improved over the past decade. Jax MN (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the welcome!
I'd be happy to help refine a draft! I feel as tho I am far too new to this WikiProject and wiki-editing in general to create a helpful guideline. (for example, I am a bit unsure of how'd to create that page on the backend for everyone to access).
I also agree that many articles seem to be beyond an original draft, but I've still used them to improve start- or c-class articles for the university wikiproject. I also think it would be good to have a reference for people looking to improve their own organization's page to have some easy to reference guide. Pancake621 (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is a good idea. Although some groups have variations specific to them, there is a format we tend to use. In addition, there a plenty of discussions to pull from where we decided what content to include in a given section or format for content. It is something I keep meaning to draft. Rublamb (talk) 19:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy to help refine a draft! Pancake621 (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will get to it eventually. Currently working on a bear of a project. Rublamb (talk) 13:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Puerto Rico

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Eljohnson15 Anything you can find would be useful. I'd really like to have enough to create the CIPR page (or have someone else create it, I'm not picky. :) )Naraht (talk) 13:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grove City College redirects.

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The local fraternities and sororities at Grove City College all have redirects to the college. Given that they aren't even specifically mentioned in the article anymore, I think they should be nuked. Naraht (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather that the body text for the school article be adjusted to list them. Without WLs, probably. I thought that there were one or two that had actual articles. Did you check each of them? Jax MN (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked. Grove City fraternities with articles include: Adelphikos and Pan Sophic, along with numerous redirects. Jax MN (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Rublamb (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just remembered: As I mentioned above in Chapters of Greek Societies by Campus, there also redirects in our Watchlist section "Chapters of Greek Societies by Campus" that go to removed content from the university article. The problem in all of these cases is that the unviversity article was trimmed without addressing the related redirects. Does anyone in our WP have authority to delete redirects? I have not had luck with this before because I was not the one who created the redirect. Rublamb (talk) 21:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GLOs by "level"

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I don't have a good feeling here for this, but I'd like to start a discussion on the types that I see. As far as I can tell, we have

  1. High School groups (both High school honoraries and the groups like BBYO and Scouts Royale Brotherhood).
  2. Two year college groups (Like Delta Psi Omega, which right now is combined with Alpha Psi Omega, its 4 year equivalent).
  3. Four year college groups (including those that have community chapters and/or alumni chapters)
  4. Four year college groups allowing two year college chapters (started and focused on four year colleges but allow two year college, some professional, some honorary)
  5. Requires a Bachelors to be even be at the school that has the chapter (Med School Fraternities, Legal Fraternities)
  6. Entirely community based.

I'm not honestly sure if these should be part of type, or called something else. Not sure that four year GLOs should really be distinguished if they allow chapters at 2 year schools (Alpha Phi Omega has about 30 charters at 2 year schools as opposed to over 700 at four year schools as well as some of the older fraternities and sororities which had two year schools early in their history that they'll never go back to.Naraht (talk) 13:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For your suggestion of there being two "Four year college" types, one of which supports some Two-year school activity, I don't think those need to be split out. I'd also note that some honor societies are entirely post-grad, while others support tapping early in the undergrad years, or while in grad school. There is also a distinction to be made between variants of the community-based (i.e.: non collegiate) organizations, but this can be clarified in the "emphasis" field.
Is this discussion for the purpose of creating new categories? Or for the infoboxes, or for a new column in our standard chapter table? Jax MN (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
if I have to pick one, I'd say infobox parameter. The primary question that led to this in my head is "How should the infobox for a High School Mathematics Honorary be shown differently in the infobox from a College Mathematics Honorary?". However, I could easily see this being a question for categories as well.Naraht (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe I am consistent, but that is where Emphasis is useful. For example, it can say High School Mathematics or Junior College Mathematics, depending on the org. I also use this for honor societies that go by class year, meaing Freshmen, Juniors, Seniors, etc.
We also need to address gender. Since the infobox does not specify fraternity or sorority, you cannot tell which the group is at a quick glance. My general thought it to use "Social fraternity" or "Social sorority", instead of "Social" but that would be big update. Also, the infobox does not have a place to indicate that a professional organization or honor society is geneder specific, rather than coed. I vary in putting this detail in Type or Emphasis, so it would be good to set guidelines. Rublamb (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the wide variance of gender rules, I tend to move these facts to the body text. Until about ten years ago, the three options were consistent: men's, women's and co-ed. Today, some groups proudly lead with "nonbinary" or trans-friendly in the lede. Others have no interest in further differentiating. Forcing the point seems to tread into political matters and may evoke edit warring. It would be a significant project to keep track of which groups have effected which level of policy on this. I, for one, don't have time to research this, nor keep track of annual legislation. Let's let each individual group opt to adjust their body text, if it is that important to them. Many will not, and are satisfied with declaring "men's", "women's" or "co-ed" in the lede. Jax MN (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are two different issues. 1) One is my proposal to identify fraternities vs. sororities/women's fraternities for social organizations. This is something that we essentially do in many cases by including umbrella org affiliation, but since we should not assume everyone knows what those umbrella initials mean, this detail would make that info more accessible. Indicating what the group calls itself is not necessarily a reflection of the membership's makeup, so we are not getting involved in identifying who can or cannot join. I agree, that that is beyond the purpose of the infobox.
2) The other issue is the best way to include GLOs that have a gender focus which is a key aspect of the organization. For example, if a professional sorority's purpose is to help women become leaders, not including the gender focus is akin to ignoring that a group is multicultural, Jewish, or historically black. We could indicate this by noting its Type is a Professional Sorority or that its Emphasis is Women's Leadership. Does anyone have a preference or another suggestion? We already include LGBTQ in Emphasis if that if the organization's purpose/mission. The rare women-only or mens-only professional, honor, or service groups seem to be the outliers. Rublamb (talk) 01:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Patron X

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I definitely undercounted. Patron Saint has at least: Phi Mu Delta, Mu Epsilon Theta, Pi Lambda Sigma, Tau Gamma Sigma, Delta Phi, Theta Phi Alpha, Theta Xi, St. Anthony Hall, AV Edo-Rhenania zu Tokio. Patron Greek Divinity appears to have 16, and Patron Roman Divinity has 5. Wierdest is Theta Kappa Pi which has as its Patron Greek Divinity as Odin the Wanderer (!) which I'm still trying to find a reference for. (added very close to the beginning, which a ref that appears dead. http://mycampus.lewisu.edu/web/170608/about-us .Naraht (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sarcastic me says "guess we need a field fo Patron Norse Divinity". Being serious, it looks like Greek Divinity is the one the change to the new Patron Divinity field, then we can move the others over. Rublamb (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though at this point, I'm not sure we *need* to change. (ignoring Theta Kappa Pi's situation), I'm not sure that these (at 16, 9 & 5) are the least used of the paramers. I'm guessing both coords and pillars are in the bottom mostly below that. At *most*, I'd want to change this to a variety of free & free_label. (Patron and Patron type?) and does that gain us much? Still wish I could figure out how many are used of each parameter.Naraht (talk) 15:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think Pillars is not used because most groups call these something else (often a made up term or phrase). I have added these when I come across them. Having one Patron Divinity field would trim the long list of options and allow for outliers. I would call it Patron Divinity not Patron to avoid possible confusion with sponsors/founders who might be called a Patron. BTW, Affiliation and Status still are not showing up as options in Visual Editor unless they are already added. So we need to solve that issue before or when we make changes. Rublamb (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see Affiliations and Status at the very end of the list when I use the VE. What is your last one?Naraht (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I saw them there and thought things were good, but then noticed it was missing. Maybe it is there when adding a new infoboxes, but not for older ones? Or maybe it has to do with whether the infobox was added through VE or not. Picked one at ramdon. See Swing Phi Swing. Rublamb (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is putting at the end, any undocumented fields that the parameters exists in that article's infobox. So Swing Phi Swing has factoid and Delta Delta Delta has affiliation and status. (that is the (undocumented parameter) note I'm not sure what needs to be altered in Template:Infobox fraternity/doc, but, I'll try to tweek it.Naraht (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Status starting showing up. Now it looks like affiation is there too. Will let you know if I find any other issues. Rublamb (talk) 22:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Results from the template param list

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From the Param list result shown below... (as of June 1)

  • Roman Divinity(total 5):Minerva(3), Mars, Mercury
  • Greek Divinity (total 16):Apollo (2), Ares, Artemis, Athena, Asclepius, Calliope, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hygieia, Iris, Odin the Wanderer (????), Pallas Athena, Poseidon, Themis
  • Saint(total 10): Albert Magnus, Abraham Lincoln (????), Anthony the Great(2), Ben Franklin (????), Catherine of Sienna, Erasmus of Formia(2), Margaret the Virgin, Saint Catherine of Laboure,

I think for the ones with Saint in them, change to the article name for the person.

And as a note, the following parameters have values *less* than Patron Roman Divinity: chartercity, coordinates, charterdate, virtues, postal code, and province.Naraht (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

chartercity and charterdate are not needed as we have Founded and Birthplace. Rublamb (talk) 16:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Naraht. Your analysis proves we can combine these patron variants into a single field. I also agree with Rublamb that the "chartercity" and "charterdate" are unnecessary. I'd also dump "coordinates" and "virtues", but keep alternative fields "postal code" and "province" out of respect to our Canadian groups. Jax MN (talk) 20:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So replace with two fields: Patron type with an expected small number of choices: Roman Divinity, Greek Divinity, Saint, and *maybe* Divinity (for those groups using Apollo, which doesn't change names between Greek and Roman, and for Odin the wanderer.
Province is used at least once by one of the Philippines groups, which doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't know what countries have something other than State or Province as their first level subdivision, my guess is that we are most likely to run into problems for one of the Eastern European Groups.
Zeroing out chartercity and charterdate will take a few minutes if we are all find for it. Virtues, probably easier to remove them from the infobox entirely.Naraht (talk) 01:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me Rublamb (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You might also add the choice of "Hero" to account for persons like Abraham Lincoln, Ben Franklin, etc. Jax MN (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Theta Nu Epsilon?

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Hi All,

Was just talking with @Naraht over some deletions I made over at Theta Nu Epsilon. Long story short, about a decade ago a bunch of sockpuppets put a whole bunch of fake history on that page and I'm trying to sort out the legit from the totally bogus. There is a whole talk page about it, but complicating the issue is a bunch of the sockpuppets engage in a fake fight with each other. Anyway any help folks could give in cleaning up the article would be greatly appreciated! Jjazz76 (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Primary source used for the chapter list that was recently deleted is the one from a website that someone put together, which can https://web.archive.org/web/20150403113708/http://thetanuepsilon.org/13Chaplis/ChapterList.html . Other lists that I have found (mostly by googling "Theta Nu Epsilon" and picked at random from the first list Bowdoin) include https://books.google.com/books?id=xbU0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA233 and https://books.google.com/books?id=PfDmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA228 . The second although without letters, is from Banta's greek exchange. Note, normally I'd consider Banta's and Baird's as being neutral secondary/tertiary sources for articles about GLOs, but for Theta Nu Epsilon, they would be viewed as *somewhat* antagonistic. Went through my copies of Baird's, and wierdly enough some of the index entries in some editions were screwy, but they best I could do is the 1930s Baird's which had a list of those that were part of the 1925ish reconstruction to be more acceptable as a GLO like those in the NIC (no double membership, etc). This is missing quite a few. For example, *every* source I can find has the chapter list starting Wesleyan, Syracuse, Union, Cornell and Rochester. I'd also suggest editions of the Wesleyan Olla Podrida, for example https://books.google.com/books?id=va8PAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA67 .Naraht (talk) 21:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Baird's 20th has a list of 17 chapters. I'd suggest we roll back these edits and begin looking for sources that confirm each of the groups previously listed. Jax MN (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the effort to improve this article but I agree to a rollback is best in this situtation. Some of the recently deleted content appears to have legit sources, such as athe chapter list. If content with a citation is going to be removed, there needs to be documentation as to what was wrong with that source, probably on the article's talk page OR replacement content with a new/better source. If these edits are being made based on personal knowledge and not sources, that falls under original research. Rublamb (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the sources, as far as I could tell, didn't exist or were legitimately made up. The archive talk page way at the bottom, from back in 2008 describes the issues further. But again, if folks think I've deleted too much, I'm totally fine with that. Just trying to work on an article that is a bit of a mess. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
References: Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).[1][2] Jax MN (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for these. I just want to make clear I have no issues with Baird or any of the standard reference volumes. There is also a good NY Times article citation in the article that discusses these 1910s to 1920s issues. But the article as it stood, base on a mid-2000s website, list well over 100 chapters many of which had no documentation in Baird, standard reference volumes, or some of the college newspapers I looked through. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good faith, certainly. I found some of the claims to be dubious or worse when I worked on that article. However, after I cleared out some of the chuff, I left the long-ish list of chapters as a breadcrumb trail to help others start their searches for individual chapter references. I also wrote the summary reference (#1, below), which I think is a fair round-up of a couple of sources. I use that language elsewhere, so had copied-and-pasted it from the U of MN list of fraternities on Wikipedia. More broadly, it may be useful in a revision to the TNE article. Others here are better researchers, and we welcome additions to our ranks. I anticipate that the legitimate TNE chapters will surface in one or two references, somewhere. Jax MN (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
GLOs rarely show up in campus newspapers after the 1980s unless there is a hazing incident or chapter house fire, so that does not prove or disprove a chapter. Frustratingly, even yearbooks are not accurate in the last quarter of the 20th century. And, since Baird's last edition was in 1992, we would expect there to be a difference between it and an organizational chapter list from the 2000s. A lot can happen in 2000 years! I will see what I can find--just give me a few days to wrap up other projects. Rublamb (talk) 23:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Baird's and other sources note ΘΝΕ was an ill-favored national due to its recruitment of sophomores who were already members of other fraternities, and a policy of secrecy about the active members – those same sophomores tapped each year. It was NOT an honorary, nor a service society. (Freshmen were not eligible, juniors and seniors were advisory only.) Hence, ΘΝΕ became a bit of a pariah, and members were pressured to quit lest they be expelled from their primary fraternities at Minnesota (see ΦΣΚ Rand History); in 1913 the NIC advocated vigorously against its collegians joining ΘΝΕ. Struggling for a workable path to legitimacy, several varying models developed on ΘΝΕ's campuses, where some chapters became standard fraternities, and other public inter-fraternity groups. At Alabama, it even became a political machine, while other chapters took yet other forms. Later, with the adoption of changes, ΘΝΕ briefly joined the NIC in the 1930s, but ceased operations after WWII. Several chapters reformed the society as a smaller entity, some becoming co-ed in the 1970s. The fraternity reports a few chapters that remain active today. --All information compiled from Baird's 19th, from the cited ΘΝΕ website, and a note about Theta Nu Epsilon in ΦΣΚ's Rand History, in a reference cited under that fraternity, p190.
  2. ^ Frank Prentice Rand (1923). Phi Sigma Kappa: A History 1873 – 1923. Northampton, Massachusetts: The Council of Phi Sigma Kappa, via The Kingsbury Print. p. 190ff.

Negative issues in lede...

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After seeing the change to Alpha Kappa Rho. I'm generally feeling the following way. Negative issues should only be included in the lede if that is the only thing that the group has notability for at all. the only one that I can come up with that fits that is Chi Tau (local) (where I am fine with the current) Naraht (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When I was cleaning up that article, I decided to leave the existing lede content related to violence and gang behavior. I agree it could be tempered but this is relevant here because this is not just a service fraternity. Service fraternities do not require police-led peace accords. IMO, it would be like only mentioning that a Nigerian confraternity is a service organization and ignoring its history of piracy. Even given your suggestion of only including negative content if this is why the group is notable, I believe the only sources for this article that are not primary are about its violent history, making that the only reason the group is notable. Rublamb (talk) 03:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two cents: The lede should be a summary of the article's following paragraphs, distilling in one or two sentences the key points about the society. Indeed, the two examples you mention (three, with mention of the Nigerian group), these three indeed should include the detrimental information in the lede. Jax MN (talk) 08:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jax MN, Do you have time to look at Alpha Kappa Rho and restore some mention of the negative content? You are really good a distilling facts into a reasonable amount of content. Rublamb (talk) 13:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rublamb In regards to peace accords, while you have the mention of peace accords in regards to AKRho and Tau Gamma Phi, it is much broader than that. Please take a look at the announcement of the peace accord at Western Mindanao State University ([1]) which covers AKRho, Tau Gamma Phi/Sigma, Alpha Sigma Phi, Alpha Phi Omega, Order of Demolay and others. (And if negative belongs in the lead, Tau Gamma Phi probably also qualifies. (18 hazing deaths in the last 18 years more or less)) Naraht (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rollup of Parameters and values. *VERY USEFUL*

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A bot runs every month (current was done on June 1) that has a rollup of all of the values. (https://bambots.brucemyers.com/TemplateParam.php?wiki=enwiki&template=Infobox+fraternity) This was a *lot* of useful information, for example, for the parameter patron roman divinity , you can show links to all of the pages that use it *or* click on the Unique values columns, see how many unique values there are and for each of *them* see what pages they have. One annoying piece of data, I want to track down. 787 pages with the infobox, 787 with type, 787 with scope, and *786* with founded. Which means *one* article doesn't have it.

It is generated monthly, so we won't be able to see our recent changes for a bit, but it *will* be useful. Let me know what you find most useful!Naraht (talk) 03:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another issue: The Bot reports 787 pages with the Infobox fraternity. The List of Articles on the WP landing page only has only 744. If I understand how the List is generated, this means that 43 articles do not have WP Fraternities and Sororities listed on their Talkpage. I will see if I can find these using petscan. (Anything to avoid fixing the issues with Christian fraternities). Rublamb (talk) 15:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Petscan found seven. Working on it. Rublamb (talk) 15:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

July

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Looked at the talk page for the creator of the bambot (User:Bamyers99). It appears that the run with the June 1 data was created on June 9. It processes a generated file from Wikipedia that takes a while to generate. I dropped him a note thanking him and asking if the 9th was about normal. (With these types of generated files, I'd be *very* surprised if it ever came earlier than the 4th).Naraht (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

July has been generated. Any additions of suggested/required will not show up until August. I'll take a look at July to see what changes we are looking at.Naraht (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the work I did yesterday is not reflected. I guess will will need to wait another month to make sure that unwanted fields are truly not in use. But this is still progress. Rublamb (talk) 19:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. It is based on the State of the Wikipedia database as of July 1.Naraht (talk) 20:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Founded

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As of June, there was *one* infobox without founded. *If* the infobox is set so that it is suggested or required, the rollup will show a link so we can see which one is missing. Similarly, I think it could be done on the others that are more than 700, chapters, name, birthplace, and country.Naraht (talk) 01:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or, I was thinking we could use Excel to compare the complete list with the list of items with countries, etc. It has been a while since I have used that feature, but it should yield a list of aritlces lacking whatever component. Rublamb (talk) 05:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Found it! Aquinas Honor Society. Working on getting a date, I've found one that places it no later than 1951.Naraht (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Rublamb (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August is up

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Exactly 800 with the template. I'll move comments over to Template talk:Infobox FraternityNaraht (talk) 13:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

State and Country in Infobox

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  1. ) Do we link to the State and/or Country?
  2. ) Do we abbreviate to Postal Abbreviation/Standard abbreviation in the Display if we do?
  3. ) Additionally what should be shown for the country containing Chicago: US, USA, United States or United States of America?

As far as I can tell from the parameter listing, most common for country is "United States", no link, but not sure on the states for linking. Naraht (talk) 14:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For US states I'd previously been using the two-letter postal abbreviations. However you or Rublamb have asserted use of the full state name. I'd also read that US Postal abbreviations aren't optimal here, per MOS, so I'm onboard with using the full state name. Note also I don't think we need Wikilinks for instances of "United States" as the country, also per MOS. Jax MN (talk) 17:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jax MN, you are correct. MOS calls for United States, U.S. or US, rather than USA or United States of America. It also says not to link the last item in city, state, country string--so country would not be linked but city and state would be (could be). MOS says to avoid abbreviations but does recognize state abbreviations as being standard. This means that state abbreviations are allowed but the full state name would be preferred, with abbreviations being used where space is a consideration. (You could argue either way on the space issue with an Infobox0. Since people from around the world use Wikipedia, I don't assume that everyone knows what the state abbreviations mean, which is why I tend to spell them out. But either is fine. I started spelling out United States because I spell out Canada, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, etc. rather than using country abbreviations. But, again, the abbreviated form is allowable. Rublamb (talk) 20:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So from this. If the addresses city is Portland Oregon, we should have
  • Choice 1: [[Portland, Oregon|Portland]], [[Oregon]], United States
  • Choice 2: [[Portland, Oregon|Portland]], [[Oregon|OR]], United States
Should we standardize?Naraht (talk) 14:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Country

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No answer to the above question on standardization, but it does appear we have agreement, always use United States unlinked. I'll put that on the todo list.Naraht (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed additions to Affiliation

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I know these organizations don't exist but our usage of adding past affiliations has been spotty. For example, a group that was

  1. ) PPA: Professional Panhellenic Association
  2. ) PIC: Professional Interfraternity Conference
  3. ) AES: Association of Education Sororities
  4. ) CNHL: (*Maybe*) Concilio Nacional de Hermandades Latinas

Naraht (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I did not respond. I have no issue with these being added. Rublamb (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I need to go back and do CNHL.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No longer active on the collegiate level...

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Groups with descriptions like this, should be treated as Active or Defunct??? Rho Psi is the example, but there are others.Naraht (talk) 19:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have skipped over these hoping to magically come up with a solution. Maybe it depends. Is it actively initiating members to alumni or community based chapters? That would be an active. However, if it just has the dregs of an alumni association or a national board, it might be an active organization but is longer an active fraternity. The same way a defunct college with an alumni association is no longer an active college. I think the main questions in deciding are: Does it still initiate new members? Does it still have chapters? Has it migrated from a fraternity/sorority to an organization based on WP criteria? Rublamb (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone else what to weigh in on this? Does my criteria make sense? Rublamb (talk) 18:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like the idea. If it is still making new members of any type, it is active.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Current list: Infobox fraternity/sorority & Notability or No Ref Tag

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Delete: I'm unable to find any other sources. Still can remain on the LGBTQ list article. Rublamb (talk) 01:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I found nothing that was helpful to add. It can be on the list of service and/or religious GLO, but this article should be AfD. Rublamb (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Only other sources were mentions of brides or graduates being members. The one secondary source is a local newspaper that basically quotes a member who says it is a local that has existed for 30 years and has 1000 alumni. The bulk of its content is from the group's website. But enough to be included in our list article. Rublamb (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I cannot find more sources. See discussion below and on the article's talk page. Rublamb (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Naraht (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Naraht: can I merge my short list of articles with no sources into this list since the issue is pretty much the same? Rublamb (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. And Tau Alpha needs To be restored to the list reverted my removal. Currently at Talk:Tau Alpha, would appreciate eyes on.Naraht (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Rublamb (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scope...

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Sigma Sigma Sigma's situation. All in the USA except for one inactive in Germany. National (US) or International?Naraht (talk) 17:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that if they once were international, they may continue to claim it. Jax MN (talk) 18:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
National Rublamb (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, no conclusion here for now. I don't know if we have any other examples.
The reason I prefer to allow "International" is that my (our?) bias on Wikipedia is to write historically due to the trailing nature of the work. This resource (WP) is often and is usually current, but a comprehensive summary ought to be our goal, not only immediate accuracy. It's why we don't delete inactive groups nor pare articles down to only reflect the current situation. At least that is the way I infer our MOS. Jax MN (talk) 20:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For an active group, having scope reflect its current status is consistent with having the chapter count be active chapters only. I would also call a once-national GLO with only one active chapter "local", not national or international. If the group in this example is defunct or merged, we use the total chapter count and would logically use international. To me, it is puffery to say that a group with just one defunct international chapter is international in scope. In some cases, the international chapters went inactive around the time of WWII, so it is really not accurate to call them intenational. Rublamb (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm. I'm OK with this rationale. Jax MN (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Association of Teachers College Fraternities

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This was an another Umbrella Group. Sort of equivalent to the Association of Education Sororities. Created by Phi Sigma Epsilon and Sigma Tau Gamma in 1937 and joined by Zeta Sigma. In the 1940 Baird's with a complete description like the other umbrellas, but I can't find it mentioned in 1949 and both Phi Sigma Epsilon and Sigma Tau Gamma joined the NIC in the early 1950s. Pretty much everything I can find is from the 1940s Baird's about them and I'm going to have try to figure out what happened to Zeta Sigma beyond simply imploding. Naraht (talk) 14:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a couple of other redlinked umbrella groups to our Watchlist yesterday. One for law fraternities and the other for medical fraternities. Both have around a page in at least one edition of Bairds. I will create an article at some point. But I was not sure if these should be added to the template and Infobox, since both were later replaced with bigger professional groups. Does the one you are looking at fall under that category--a short lived group that merged or was replaced? Rublamb (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Similar to AES, once the more well known group that was present at more prestigious group allowed chapters as teachers colleges, they let the other just die. So like AES, they qualify.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons club or Commons Club

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The article and the infobox (plus most of the article) conflict on the capitalization on the second c, which way should it be? Naraht (talk) 23:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Club would also be capitalized, as it is a formal noun. Jax MN (talk) 23:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is actually two articles that are incorrectly mashed together--I have been avoiding fixing it. There is 1) Commons Club, an specific membership organization that should be capitalized 2) commons club , a type of general organization akin to a fraternity or society. Rublamb (talk) 00:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delta Psi Kappa

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Sorting out Delta Psi Kappa. Couldn't both have been in the PFA (which was founded in 1978) and have merged with Phi Delta Pi in 1970. Need to check the 1991 Bairds...Naraht (talk) 00:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delta Psi Kappa, the physical education fraternity, is in the PFA section of Baird's 20th. Its merger partner, Phi Delta Pi, also a women's physical education fraternity held other affiliations, including the American Association for Health, Physical Education and Recreation. The notes for the latter, dormant organization say it merged with Delta Psi Kappa, a member of the "Professional Panhellenic Association" in March of 1970. Jax MN (talk) 00:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Otoh, it is listed as a founding member on PFA's website. I wonder if it kept its name and Phi Delta Pi merged into it???Naraht (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And had at least one active chapter until 1989 https://thekeep.eiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1183&context=press_releases_1989 . Naraht (talk) 09:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Fraternity discussion

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creating Template_talk:Infobox_fraternity#Future_of_both_infobox_and_filling_in_values. as requested, please comment. Naraht (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Undoing edits for 104.60.196.157

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This IP user has done nothing but mark chapters of Hispanic/Latino Fraternities as inactive. It is the reason that we (reasonably) marked Tau Phi Sigma as completely inactive. (And I've found at least two chapters of Tau Phi Sigma that had rush weeks in Fall of 2022). Currently left to do (would appreciate help)

Naraht (talk) 17:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Founded date for The Order of Ammon

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Right now there is *one* article that has the infobox template but not the start date and age template The Order of Ammon. Given the lack of information, I'm almost tempted to go Kappa Sigma on it and just list the date that something first that there is proof of. Naraht (talk) 15:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would that be 1998 or 2005 when it was rechartered? Rublamb (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Acceptance of transX where X is the gender of the Social single-sex GLO...

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Where does the fact that a social single-sex GLO does or does not accepted who are transX where X is the Gender of the group (whether Delta Delta Delta accepts trans women or Kappa Sigma accepts trans men) generally belong in the articles?Naraht (talk) 04:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would expect such matters to be discussed in a "Membership" section. Primefac (talk) 13:23, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the membership section. Rublamb (talk) 01:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New honor society category

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WikiObjectivity has created several new categories related to honor societies, including Category:Gold graduation stoles and Category:Blue and Gold Honor Societies. Firstly, do these categories make sense? If so, shouldn't they be subcategories of the honor society category? Rublamb (talk) 01:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I think it is a reaction to what is occurring with Phi Theta Kappa, to prove that the claims in the lawsuit are unreasonable.Naraht (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since Wikipedia's function is not to support lawsuits, I guess we need to determine the usefulness of these categories and their correct placement in within honor society categories. Rublamb (talk) 13:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Phi Theta Kappa eyes on please

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I'm not quite sure where things are going between WikiObjectivity and the other editor.Naraht (talk) 07:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did some cleanup before you posted. The controversies sections were overlong, needed the language to be neutralized, and had conclusions rather than facts stated by the sources. There are still too many sources but I didn't address that. I don't know that my fixes will hold but I did try. Rublamb (talk) 14:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

German groups

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My addition of chapter count to the infobox of a German group was reverted with this comment: "German student fraternities, known as "Studentenverbindungen," do not have chapters in the way that English fraternities do. If one were to find an equivalent to this concept in German student fraternities, the fraternities themselves would be considered the chapters of the umbrella organizations." ThoughtS? Do we need to exclude chapters from those with the Studentenverbindungen type in our report for missing chapters? Does this impact how we treat the German umbrellas? Rublamb (talk) 13:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I *think* that they are mostly right. And I think Studentenverbindungen is the plural, the singular is Studentenverbindung and I think the German Umbrellas should be treated link the US ones like PFA. (though probably *not* in the same article) and it isn't *just* German, I think Austria, the Baltics, Poland and maybe Czech Republic & Slovakia.Naraht (talk) 15:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have worked on many of these articles and it is always a bit off from our norm. So is each group/chapter a Studentenverbindung (singular) in their infobox, rather than a Studentenverbindungen? And, we would no longer use the chapter field for any group with that type unless its website states a chapter number. Or should we translate to "student organization" or "student association" for type? Rublamb (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My preference: type = Studentenverbindung (the singular)
yes on the website has to give a number otherwise leave it off
Drop the issue category if the type is Studentenverbindung . Primefac Is this is possible?

Current non-matching & Studentenverbindung

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Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with non-matching name currently has five entries:

Additional research over on dewiki. Firstly, it looks like most have Corps first. See entries in https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Studentenverbindung_nach_Korporationsverband and the subcats. Also, in terms of fields used, See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlage:Infobox_Studentenverbindung which is the template used. Note, given some of the specialty fields there, I'd have no problem with copying the template and using it here.Naraht (talk) 22:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Portal Diskussion:Studentenverbindung

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I've reached out to the Discussion group over on dewiki at de:Portal_Diskussion:Studentenverbindung#Request_knowledge_from_english_language_wiki_on_Studentenverbindung and got some really great answers to things. And as I said before, I'm thinking of creating an Template:Infobox_Studentenverbindung equivalent to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlage:Infobox_Studentenverbindung if I can understand all the fields.Naraht (talk) 19:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Differentiating the local tapped organizations.

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It appears that there are slightly different types of local organizations that we might want to differentiate in the infobox to determine which ones we are *never* going to see websites for. There are some where no one should know who are members other than those who are already members, there are ones where membership is not revealed until after leaving school and there are those where it is public while they are in school. I *think* only the last one is in any way likely to have a website, so is there something in the infobox that could be looked at/set to avoid the maintenance category? (This is sort of half here, half in the infobox, but if we come to a decision...)Naraht (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my suggestions:
  • Type: Secret society
  • Status: Defunct
  • Type: Senior society (rarely have websites)
  • Type: Confraterity (rarely have websites)
Rublamb (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Status: Currently defunct or merged or anything other than Active.
  • Type: (and this is where I'm going to want to see the parameter list for August. I think we have some offshoots that are combinations of this, but the thing where we may some of the "Skull and Bones" types that are actually listed as "Honor Society", we'll have to change them to something similar to that. All of the "Tomb groups" at Yale should have the same type and we should probably use that as a guide.Naraht (talk) 21:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I worked on the secret societies / senior societies when we moved those to our domain. At Yale, not all tomb groups are secret societies as some are senior societies or even traditional GLO. I am not saying I fixed all of them, but think I hit most when adding infoboxes and sources. Rublamb (talk) 21:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

=Secret Societies at Yale

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(hit an ec here, but was working on this) Type values for the entries in Category:Secret societies at Yale

Naraht (talk) 21:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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