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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): M.HernandezFer (article contribs).
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Respected editors I request you to kindly make an omission in The title of the page and make it form "Mahtma Gandhi"to "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" as acording to article 18 of our Indian constitution the abolition of title acct which states that :
Abolition of titles
(1) No title, not being a military or academic distinction, shall be conferred by the State.
(2) No citizen of India shall accept any title from any foreign State.
(3) No person who is not a citizen of India shall, while he holds any office of profit or trust under the State, accept without the consent of the President any title from any foreign State.
(4) No person holding any office of profit or trust under the State shall, without the consent of the President, accept any present, emolument, or office of any kind from or under any foreign State.
Thus I request you aagain to remove mahatma form mahatma gandhi as it is a violation of our Indian constituion Ananye Sharma17 (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Later tonight, I will be adding a different, and more comprehensive, version of the disputed lead sentences on Gandhi's last fast in Mahatma Gandhi, which will be supported by different sources, all published after 2022 by internationally recognized university presses. I will put up an "inuse" sign before I make my edits, which will not take me more than half an hour. I trust that you will not make any edits to the lead during this time, let alone revert my edits, as you did here and here respectively. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»00:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You will see that the interpretation that Gandhi had attempted to compel the Indian government to pay out cash assets owed to Pakistan was not a fringe view. It had been a part of the lead for quite a few years until it was removed last year. I was not able to pursue that matter diligently as RL beckoned. Admin @Abecedare: had offered to lend a hand, though not in an administrative capacity, but very likely also had RL calling.
I note that this interpretation has been there in Dominion of India in the section on Gandhi's murder and a section or two before. @DrKay:
Pinging also @Randy Kryn: for a Gandhian resolution and @Ealdgyth: for a historian's take. Pinging also @RegentsPark: and @Drmies: for wisdom.
Yes, there are many things that are falsely attributed by high quality sources not only to Gandhi but also to other giant figures like Lincoln, Voltaire and many others. But we cannot use such misinformation on Wikipedia because it is very necessary on Wikipedia to evaluate credibility a debunked claim. No matter how much you ignore it.
This misinformation has been debunked by many reliable sources such as [1][2][3][4] and more. Anyone can access this fact check of this misinformation from Deutsche Welle.
You haven't provided any sources which have addressed the debunking of this claim thus you need to stop edit warring to restore your preferred sentence. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 09:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you present this in cite book format with a specific quote as I have done throughout. At least two of your sources are newspapers, one not even in English. Are you suggesting they compare with Joya Chatterji’s new book published by Yale University Press in November 2023, which I have cited in the lead? Fowler&fowler«Talk»12:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of discussing the technical details about these sources, can you discuss their content? I would urge you again to discuss how your sources address the dispute over this false claim per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
F&F, I'm sorry, but what am I supposed to see in this huge edit? What's being debunked? What sentences were disputed? Nor do I understand the three edits starting on 21:29, 11 August 2024. I usually trust you as an editor, but you're dragging me into something I have no knowledge of. I'm an administrator and I prefer, in such cases, not to get involved in content disputes. But I also don't understand why Abhishek makes this revert or why Azuredivay makes this one. Drmies (talk) 12:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not that complicated Drmies, or at least it didn’t used to be. What had been place was similar to the last paragraph of Dominion of India#Settling the refugees, that is until Abhishek0831996 and some other editors appeared here out of the blue last summer and began to edit war based on the logic that modern Indian historiography had not addressed some claims published in dubious sources. They wore us down My edits became more complicated because I was trying to appease them in order to make progress Fowler&fowler«Talk»12:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS I pinged you Drmies not about the content but for some wisdom about how not to get bogged down in the face of a combination of fringe views and WP:Civil POV pushing
Apologies. I owe you answers to some implicit questions. The edit of 21:29 11 August was a mistake. That is why I immediately self reverted. The 21:35 edit was the correct one. Why did I make it? I came across some sources, notably Joya Chatterji’s new book, which stated unambiguously that a goal of Gandhi’s last hunger strike was compelling the Indian government to pay money owed to Pakistan.
There were other new sources. In my edit of 21:35 I was attempting to add the deleted content supported by the new sources I say deleted because if you read the version both Abhishek0831996 and Azurejay have reverted to, you’ll see there is a cognitive break after “when Gandhi was 78.” Missing there is the reference to Gandhi’s actions, wrt Pakistan and Muslims that might have created the belief among some
PPS The other thing is that if you Drmies are perplexed by my edits then I have obviously done a half-assed job. The either/or construction is meant to summarize two schools of thought: those who think Gandhi attempted to pressure India’s government about Pakistan in no uncertain terms) and those who think his stated aims were only about restoring peace but the government felt pressured because they didn’t want a 78 year old icon’s death laid at their doorstep.
You still haven't found any source which would go against the refutation of this false claim.
The source source cited by Abhishek0831996 is very clear. As such, this false claim cannot be entertained. Pretending that Wikipedia does not care about fact-checking will not work. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see that Fowler&fowler does not have the benefit of community consensus supporting the proposed addition. If a case can be made that a large capital transfer from India to Pakistan was among Gandhi's aims, the case should be treated in the article body as a minor viewpoint held by some observers, not summarized in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 03:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Binksternet: It is not a proposed addition. It had been in the article's lead for ten years when some editors who had nary an edit in this article sniped the sentences out of house and home last summer.
I had rewritten the lead and the first few sections in the summer and fall of 2013, see here, soon after the FA India had successfully cleared its FAR. I had written most of the text in India as well, including all of its history section.
Not only is this a much viewed page, it is also much edited. So its not like my edits could have been swept under the rug. Over the years since, the article and with the reference to the cash transfer in the lead was edited by admins and historians alike e.g.:
Gandhi's 150 birth anniversary when India made its second WP:TFA
The page and the reference to the cash assets was there when other admins (who edit South Asia pages) such as RegentsPark, Abecedare, SpacemanSpiff, and Titodutta and historian Rjensen made their edits.
Last summer I didn't have the time to take these editors on. Admin Abecedare tried but in my view these editors proved too slippery. Frankly, I don't know what made them collect on this talk page. I can guess in light of India's conservative national politics, but I'll get into trouble.
Gandhi's insistence on the money transfer was the major reason for his assassination, not a minority viewpoint. I have already given the list of 30 sources referred to above. Here's are two very recent ones:
Joya Chatterji, FBA, Professor of South Asian History at the University of Cambridge, winner of Los Angeles Times Award in History 2024, says in:
Chatterji, Joya (2023). Shadows at Noon: The South Asian Twentieth Century. Yale University Press. pp. 642–643. ISBN978-0-300-27268-0. Arriving at a mutually acceptable division of the assets (and liabilities) of British India proved challenging. In the matter of giving to Pakistan its share of the common pool of resources, India's Home Minister Vallabhbhai Patel deployed India's considerable advantage – physical control over the assets – to impose hard bargains on Pakistan. Even after India agreed, in December 1947, to accept Pakistan's claims to a portion of the public finance and the cash balances, Patel still refused to transfer any monies. It was only in January 1948, after Gandhi undertook his last fast to compel the government of India to honour its commitments, that Patel reluctantly release monies to Pakistan. (As we know, Gandhi paid with his life for taking Pakistan's side on this issue.)
Partha Chatterjee, historian and anthropologist at Columbia has this to say:
Chatterjee, Partha (2022). Chatterjee, Partha (ed.). The Truths and Lies of Nationalism as Narrated by Charvak. State University of New York Press. The frenzy of communal violence in Punjab at the time of partition and the subsequent conflict with Pakistan over Kashmir vitiated public opinion in northern India. Recognising the mood, senior leaders of the Congress, including Vallabhbhai Patel and Rajendra Prasad, pushed for a hard line against Pakistan. It was decided to suspend payment of Pakistan's share of the substantial reserves in pounds sterling left behind by the British. Gandhi, who had moved to Delhi in September 1947 to stop the communal violence there, urged the Congress leaders to end their enmity with Pakistan, declaring that he belonged to both India and Pakistan. To press his point, he went on a fast in the middle of January demanding that the money that rightfully belonged to Pakistan be released. A few days later, the government relented. That is when Nathuram Godse decided to kill Gandhi.
Regardless of this TLDR, the fact remains the same that you are simply citing sources that have only made passing mention of a claim that has been found to be false by numerous reliable sources. Nobody has disputed this fact so far. As such you should refrain from edit warring. Azuredivay (talk) 08:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Azuredivay: Which textbooks published by major university presses have refuted the claim that compelling the Indian government to transfer the partitioned monetary reserves to Pakistan was one of the goals of Gandhi’s last hunger strike? What academic journals was the textbook reviewed in per WP:HISTRH, WP:HISTRW? Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have mentioned Lars Blinkenberg but he noted "the list specifying these conditions did not mention the transfer of money to Pakistan". Are those sources cited above are not reliable enough? To me they appear to have been published by accomplished authors and reliable publishers. Do you have any sources that had responded to the fact check? Azuredivay (talk) 12:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please quote fully. LB says Gandhi was not convinced and he felt—like Mountbatten and Nehru—that the agreed transfer to Pakistan of a cash amount of Rs. 550 million should be implemented despite the Kashmir crisis. Gandhi started a fast unto death, which was officially done to stop communal trouble, especially in Delhi, but 'word went round that it was directed against Sardar Patel's decision to withhold the cash balances' Only because of Gandhi's interference, which was soon to cause his death, Sardar Patel gave in and the money was handed over to Pakistan By what interpretation does he not say Gandhi's fast was meant to indirectly pressure the Indian government to pay up? It was in the article for 11 years, until you guys began to edit war last year with Teesta Setalvad leading your charge. Seriously? Fowler&fowler«Talk»15:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
F&F, Chatterji's latest notes that the Harappan Dancing Girl is in some museum in Pakistan. Now, as much as the handful of inaccuracies do not detract from her brilliance, I doubt that you will strive for our article on the sculpture to be updated out of a (misplaced) reverence for her! In other words, it will be helpful if you refrain from overusing argument from authority and try to find some primary and secondary (than tertiary) sources on the issue since quasi-respectable sources appear to have challenged the longstanding view. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fwiw, I can ask Chatterjee if he had "verified" the reason of Gandhi's fast (though his personal correspondence would not qualify RS) but I am pretty certain that he didn't. Unless a particular aspect is integral to the argument of one's scholarship, scholars almost-always reproduce from other authoritative works; Chatterjee's book spans centuries of S. asian history—from Assam to Kashmir to Kerala—and it would have been implausible for him otherwise. So, Chatterjee likely relied on one of those 30 (authoritative) sources that F&F flags and now, we are witness to a form of citogenesis.
One can obviously cite all sort of policies to justify such an approach but we will be doing our readers a disservice. Ofcourse, if F&F has some source which deals with the question of Gandhi's fast in-depth — with references to primary sources— and reaches the conclusion that they believe to be true, that is different. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sumit Sarkar's magisterial Modern India drops a quote "You are not the Sardar I once knew" (p. 375; edn: 2014) while discussing the topic; Gandhi supposedly said it to Patel, aggrieved at his withholding of Pakistan's legitimate share of the spoils of Partition. This quote has been reproduced in Arnold's biography of Gandhi—in the same context—and countless other sources. I also believe that this conversation has been the ONLY[a] source—directly or indirectly—for almost every scholar who has linked Gandhi's fast with Patel's withholding of the due payments alongside . (I implore F&F and others to prove otherwise.)
Now, where does this quote come from? Sarkar does not provide any sourcing and is clever in his wording - "Gandhi is said to have remarked". So, this quote originates from Michael Brecher's Nehru: A Political Biography (OUP; 1959; p. 383) and Brechter's source, in turn, was an eyewitness who wished to remain anonymous. Brecher's book was published in 1959 and was widely read in India; that nobody chose to renounce the narrative can be taken to mean that the informer was truthful and to be honest, it was not very out-of-character for Gandhi to behave in such a manner.[b] But at the same time, it has been over six decades since the book was published and almost all contemporary documents having been declassified, I wonder why the "four-men Cabinet delegation" who met Gandhi to have him convinced of the merits of Patel's arguments—per Brecher's informer—did not leave any paper-trail for future scholars to discover!
Summarily, this needs somewhat more nuance (see Sarkar's strategic framing for one!) than the binary approach that has dictated the discourse so far. However, I do think F&F's arguments carry far more weight (than Azuredivay's and others') and the lead ought to be restored, as much as I cannot agree with his approach to this discussion. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
^Last I checked, the notoriously unreliable Durga Das had probably mentioned something on similar lines too but his works post-date the source of this quote and have rarely been cited by scholars.
^I believe the latest round of "debunking" has more to do with the politics of making Gandhi's politics palatable—though in good faith—to the increasingly-majoritarian sentiments in India, than some quest at empirical accuracy.
I really don't understand why edit warring is running parallel to a discussion. In any case, I have reverted everything back to 10 August without regard to the content of all the intervening edits, because that date appears to precede the recent disruptive activity. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Anachronist: You are welcome to lock down the article, but the disruption began in the summer of 2013. The sentence about Gandhi's purpose in his last hunger strike had been in the article for 11 years. You yourself edited the article during those 11 years as did a dozen other administrators. That doesn't mean that you supported the edit, but that had been an issue, you would have locked down the article much earlier. I had been away for the majority of the time since last summer. It was never resolved. Admin user:Abecedare tried to help, but the sources of these editors are so outlandish, and their responses so tone deaf (meant only figuratively) to Abecedare's gentle questioning, that all progress ground to a halt. See my statement: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Fowler&fowler_reported_by_User:Capitals00_(Result:_)Fowler&fowler«Talk»16:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not involved in the content here, or in any content dispute. I think I've averaged one action per year on the article, and they have been maintenance edits and protection actions. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-3 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): M.HernandezFer (article contribs).
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. 
Not done: See WP:COMMONNAME, which uses this article as an example. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 06:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)