Talk:Sakanoue no Tamuramaro

Untitled

Id like to know more about this famous person, as he is revered by many amongst the black community. I am planning to do a complete biography of this man's life and rise to power, I have discovered that his wife had wrote a poem in the Manyoo Shuu, but I am unable to find any other comprehensive documentation. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Email me at Tora620@aol.com

Fringe theory

The following non-standard "fact" deserves further evaluation before it is added to the introductory paragraph of this article.

Although there are theories that Tamuramaro may have been of African origin <:ref>Beatrice J. Fleming and Marion J. Pryde. (1946). Distinguished Negroes Abroad</ref>, these have yet to be confirmed.

Google Book Search plainly identifies Sakanouye Tamuramaro in the contents of the book:

• Fleming, Beatrice Jackson and Marion J. Pryde. Distinguished Negroes Abroad. Washington, D.C.: Associated Publishers. OCLC 404451

It was easy to find other published account which reiterates this claim:

• van Sertima, Ivan and Runoko Rashidi. (1988). African Presence in Early Asia. Transaction Publishers. 10-ISBN 0887387179; 13-ISBN 9780887387173
• Chamberlain, Alexander Francis. (1916). "The Contribution of the Negro to Human Civilization," in Select Discussions of Race Problems. Atlanta: Atlanta University Press. OCLC 2326370

I remain unconvinced; but there does seem to be undisputed compliance with WP:V, which leads to the conclusion that it should be restored to the main text, e.g.,

"And we can cross the whole of Asia and find the Negro again, for, when, in far-off Japan, the ancestors of the modern Japanese were making their way northward against the Ainu, the aborigines of that country, the leader of their armies was Sakanouye Tamuramaro, a famous general and a Negro."<:ref>Chamberlain, Alexander Francis. (1916). Select Discussions of Race Problems, p. 87.</ref>

I've moved this controversial claim to the talk page where restoring this very interesting "fact" can be discussed more fully. I'm personally disinclined to give much weight to these specific published sources; but I do not want to invest time in disputing this issue. I would rather leave this to someone else. -- Tenmei (talk) 00:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

• • Thank you for taking the time to review this. I had actually edited the original wording to

Although there are theories that Tamuramaro may have been of African origin <:ref>Beatrice J. Fleming and Marion J. Pryde. (1946). Distinguished Negroes Abroad</ref>, these have yet to be confirmed,"

as the original wording had listed that Sakanouye (in whatever form of spelling you would like, as I've often seen "Sakanoye") was "a black man, one of many blacks in Japan at that time."

I disagreed with the claim, but as the individual had listed a reference, i.e. "Distinguished Negroes Abroad", I didn't think it would be good form to eliminate the claim altogether. I, personally, do not feel that this claim (Sakanouye was of African descent)is accurate or can be supported, as there is no conclusive proof in any writings of books or any other research I know of or have in my possession. Not to mention that the Imperial court of the 8th and 9th centuries of Japanese history would have had very little cause to so openly accept a non-asian in such a capacity. -JH —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stagewalker3 (talk • contribs) 20:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Compare at Talk:Sakanoue no Karitamaro#Fringe theory. --Tenmei (talk) 02:27, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

In the context created by WP:NOR and Wp:Synthesis, more is needed before posting the dubious claims discussed in this thread, e.g.,

• According to an unsupported "factoid" posted in History of Slavery and Slavery in Japan, the earliest encounters between Japanese and any African were in the 16th century.
• Oda Nobunaga was said to have been included an African slave or former slave in his retinue.<;ref>Leupp, Gary P. (2003). Interracial Intimacy in Japan: Western Men and Japanese Women, 1543-1900, p. 37.</ref>

In the absence of any reference to a reliable source, this speculation cannot become a part of the article about Sakanoue no Tamuramaro. --Tenmei (talk) 15:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• not a single mention of this can be found on the very extensive Japanese page. Selling fringe theories for facts by citing dodgy apologetic sources makes any article look really bad. Personally I think this is just another instance of the misunderstanding of the Japanese use of the word black 黒 (kuro). It is used to describe a dark tan just as it is used to describe the skin tone(s) typical for the African phenotype. "Black" skin is a trait typically associated with rural life, and by extension, with health. References to these associations are abundant in [rakugo] stroies for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.130.174.74 (talk) 17:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Race/racism as disruptive tactic

68.190.34.181 -- Your serial edits have something to do with race or racism or something ..., but what? I can't help but notice that you are adding words, but you offer no support for curious claims that historical figures are Negroid or "Black" ...? You post no edit summaries which might explain your rationale? This leaves me at a loss for what to do?

• Sakanoue no Karitamaro

• A. diff 16:30, 2 August 2009 68.190.34.181 (685 bytes) <-- no edit summary ...Geolocate: US - Lawrenceville, Georgia 30042
• B. diff 01:47, 6 August 2009 68.190.34.181 (684 bytes) <-- no edit summary
• C. diff 16:42, 6 August 2009 68.190.34.181 (684 bytes) <-- no edit summary
• D. diff 01:11, 4 November 2009 68.190.34.181 (1,751 bytes) <-- no edit summary

• Sakanoue no Tamuramaro

• A. diff 02:29, 17 February 2009 Kinghercules m (4,934 bytes) <-- no edit summary
• B. diff 02:31, 17 February 2009 Kinghercules m (4,936 bytes) <-- no edit summary
• C. diff 07:30, 8 May 2009 24.30.68.84 (13,067 bytes) (→Notes) <-- no edit summary .. Geolocate: US - Stone Mountain, Georgia 30083
• D. diff 16:43, 6 August 2009 68.190.34.181 (5,194 bytes) <-- no edit summary ...Geolocate: US - Lawrenceville, Georgia 30042
• E. diff 01:11, 4 November 2009 68.190.34.181 (5,789 bytes) <-- no edit summary
• F. diff 13:16, 4 November 2009 68.190.34.181 (5,789 bytes) <-- no edit summary

What's the point? In the absence of other information, I can only guess that this is some kind of trouble-making gambit? If there were some other explanation, now would be a good time to share it. --Tenmei (talk) 14:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Warning

Warning

Please refrain from undoing edits repeatedly, as you are doing at Sakanoue no Tamuramaro and Sakanoue no Karitamaro. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. As you know, the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. You should also note that those -- like you -- who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule.

Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page.

The revision you want is not going to be implemented as a result of this strategy.

Think carefully about what you do next.--Tenmei (talk) 14:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

African Origins

Sure, it may be unlikely that Tamuramaro was African, but I'm surprised and disappointed that the article completely ignores this oft-believed speculation. True or not, it is part of the mythos which surrounds this man and it needs to be addressed directly, with the reasons both for and against that belief clearly stated. 66.27.92.24 (talk) 17:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

That nonsensical speculation is "oft-believed" is irrelevant, and that is certainly true when "oft-believed" means it is limited to Afrocentrists, who are a minority of a minority in the US. Sakanoue being African is not "part of the mythos" outside of Afrocentric circles, and their assertions all go back to an unsourced and unsubstantiated claim in the US 1,100 years after Sakanoue died. There is zero evidence that he was African, and the non-Afrocentrist side does not have to prove the negative to refute a baseless Afrocentrist claim.76.107.33.178 (talk) 03:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

4. Dubious claims

Excuse my writings, I am not a native speaker. I am at a loss though, why these dubious claims made it to the page as a whole. Wheter it is on the front or not, makes no difference at all in my mind.

Firstly the question is wether Alexander Francis Chamberlain used reputable sources or not for his statements - he himself did not meet Sakanoue no Tamuramaro - or not. Citing an old source does not excuse one for revealing the sources of the speaker he is citing, even if a lot of time has passed since the statements. In short, age of statement does not mean truth of statement, except when additionally that statement provides itself clear and precise evidence.

Secondly, references 9, 10, 11, 12 strike me as being a smokescreen. None of what is on those pages has any bearing to the matter at hand, or it is exceedingly diffuse. There is a need to point to the location of the 'proof'.

Finally, the link that is cunningly named "1" and is obfuscatingly inserted right before the references 9 to 12, jumps to http://www.proudblackbuddhist.org/Japanese_Are_Racist__A_Lecture/Black_Presence_Early_Japan.html

The titel of the page says it all : japanese are racist... according to Runoko Rashidi. Also searching the name Runoko Rashidi brings up politicised afro-centric writings.

Motivations behind these additions to the page seem evident, proof sparse. I concur with the notion that Kuro meens dark/bronzed. One who works the fields would be Kuro. If I see a woodblock print of Sakanoue no Tamuramaro depicting him as black I will change my mind. As it is now, this page is a disgrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.165.221.22 (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Ancestry

Why did the article have to say that an "alternative" view by "Afrocentrists" say that he was black? Where did they get this from? They got the info from a white person, so it is not 'Afrocentric,' it is a fact. Back in 1911, racism was arguably at it's peak against blacks and others, many of whom are accepted as whites today, but were not then. My point is, you can BETTER trust the history as written from the 1800's and early 1900's BETTER than today, and most certainly better than in most pages of Wikipedia, where white supremacists and historical revisionists work overtime to suppress the truth about a people they put all of their money and abilities into keeping down.

We should ask why they are so desperate to go on every site imaginable to lie about themselves and others. Lying about Europe is one thing, but why lie about Japan? The evidence is clear-cut of black in Asia as the Bhuddas have peppercorn hair, not bone straight hair like most visible Asians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.100.143.92 (talk) 06:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

while i do agree most of what you say, i have to point out that buddha did NOT originate in china, he originated in India.--2604:2000:1382:4C15:7941:EF80:61CA:E23B (talk) 15:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

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Racial identity of Sakanoue no Tamuramaro Merge

Well, my proposal for resolving the merge is to copy the content:

In 1911, Canadian anthropologist Alexander Francis Chamberlain wrote about Sakanoue no Tamuramaro in his book, "The Contribution of the Negro to Human Civilization," when introducing several black people who have contributed to the civilization of humankind throughout history. In 1915, W.E.B. Du Bois, an American civil rights leader, included Sakanoue no Tamuramaro in his list of great black rulers and warriors and introduced him in his book "The Negro". In 1946, Beatrice J. Fleming and Marion J. Pryd published "Distinguished Negroes Abroad." This was the first detailed introduction of Tamuramaro as a black man. The portion of this work that talks about Tamuramaro is in the form of a fictional Japanese man telling his two sons about Tamuramaro's exploits in front of the Tamuramaro statue at Kiyomizu-dera. From the late 1980s to the 1990s, the legend of Tamuramaro, based on the descriptions in "Distinguished Negroes Abroad" and "Black Shogun of Japan Sophonisba," became well known among those who spread information that he was black. The statue of Tamuramaro in Tamura-do Hall(Kaizan-do Hall), which enshrines Tamuramaro at Kiyomizu-dera, was made after a fire in 1633 destroyed the original, and lacks the characteristics described by Hyman, and it is unknown if an earlier statue matched Hyman's description. Although this theory has failed to provide any convincing evidence, it has continued to be cited into the 21st century, primarily by black scholars, and has been considered proof of the presence of African people in ancient Japan.

Keeping the relevant sources related to those passages. It concisely sums up the history of the theory that Sakanoue no Tamuramaro is of African descent and notes that the theory is not widely believed. It can be re-written however is needed, but I feel that the above combination of passages with further editing is about the extent of all that's really relevant to the topic at hand. Emm90 (talk) 04:46, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

This was the first detailed introduction of Tamuramaro as a black man. Is there a citation for this usage of 'first detailed'? I likewise feel there is an overuse of in-text attribution, but Alexander Francis Chamberlain and W.E.B. Du Bois are certainly notable to mention by name. The Negro by Du Bois likewise has a page. The two mentions of Fleming and Pryd's book could perhaps be condensed to just one in text attribution. I would need to see a version with the sources in order to suggest that change though. Thanks for your efforts in conducting the merge. Relm (talk) 14:44, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

As I said, the exact wording of the above passage needs to be heavily edited, it's presently just verbatim the only part(s) of the merging article that seemed directly related to the topic at hand and useful without giving the theory undue weight. The actual source for the entire paragraph that contains that mention is here[1] on Page 16. I suspect it's just a poor translation attempt from "A more detailed description appears in Distinguished Negroes Abroad (1946) by Beatrice Fleming and Marion J. Pryde". Taking Russell's statement that an earlier mention exists, and then "A more detailed description" they wrote "This was the first detailed introduction", despite the source not explicitly saying it's the first detailed description. So, it's definitely a WP:SYNTH issue.

The only sources I can recollect for the above section are

• Shoguns, Minstrels, Bodyguards, and Japan's Encounters with the Black Other, Russell, John G.
• "The Negro" W.E.B. Du Bois (used only to verify that W.E.B DuBois makes the claim)
• "The Contribution of the Negro to Human Civilization," Alexander Francis Chamberlain (Same as above, really, seems to just be there to verify the claim Chamberlain wrote it)

That said, the claims the W.E.B DuBois citation and the Chamberlain citation are verifying are also verified by the Russell piece as Russell's piece covers the W.E.B DuBois and Chamberlain's references. Emm90 (talk) 05:34, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

I would argue that this should simply be a sentence or two in the ancestry section noting that there noting the existence of a fringe theory supported by activists but that there is no basis for it and it is almost universally rejected by Japanese studies scholars (in fact, I am unaware of any experts in the subject who believe this theory?). More would be undue. DCsansei (talk) 02:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)