Talk:Cryptozoology

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Cryptozoology was a Natural sciences good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 26, 2010	Good article nominee	Not listed

Cryptozoology Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cryptozoology, an attempt to improve coverage of the pseudoscience and subculture of cryptozoology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.CryptozoologyWikipedia:WikiProject CryptozoologyTemplate:WikiProject CryptozoologyCryptids articles
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Animals Low‑importance

Cryptozoology is within the scope of WikiProject Animals, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to animals and zoology. For more information, visit the project page.AnimalsWikipedia:WikiProject AnimalsTemplate:WikiProject Animalsanimal articles

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Here are some Open Tasks :

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The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

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Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience

In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:

Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience.
Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work.
Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification.
Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.
Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by when more than 8 sections are present.

Compress the article

We get it, cryptozoology is a pseudoscience. The article essentially has point after point repeating the same thing for 80% of it's length. I think compressing the article's reception and/or terminology and approach section should be done, it's a very bloated article. KanyeWestDropout (talk) 08:54, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, we do not need to keep saying it, once in the lede and a discussion in the body is enough. Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It probably appears bloated and repetitive because so many of our WP:FRIND sources frame the topic as a pseudoscience when discussing various aspects of it. I think such framing, especially when it helps clarify context, is quite useful. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think they discuss various aspects Most say essentially the same thing (Cryptozoology is a pseudoscience) without anything really unique to add. Hill's and Card's sections have relevant and unique info. Prothero, Ward and Regal's section's don't add much besides repeating the "cryptozoology is a pseudoscience" line which is supported by 8+ citations KanyeWestDropout (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The attributed statements are each quite different, and they help illustrate the overwhelming consensus among relevant experts that cryptozoology is a pseudoscience — something that a number of fringe-friendly editors have demanded text and citations for in the past. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have citations, it seems like the bulking of the article was just done out of spite to those fringe-friendly editors and not because the article needs it KanyeWestDropout (talk) 01:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But do we really need all those quotes when we have something like 10 cites for "There is a broad consensus among academics that cryptozoology is a pseudoscience"? Slatersteven (talk) 10:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Might be helpful to hear what others think, so tagged at FTN. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:12, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, we need more discussion of this topic, not less. Almost everything about the history of this subculture—from its foundation to its continued existence in internet corners—centers around its opposition to mainstream science and mainstream academia. Here we discuss why and how it came into existence, and its continued fixation on presenting iself as a science to the general public. This is exactly what our reliable sources focus on and exactly what we cover here. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:57, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why? What else is there to say about Cryptozoology that isn't said multiple times in the article already? KanyeWestDropout (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the organization could be improved, but the length does not look excessive to me. XOR'easter (talk) 17:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Length of the whole article or length of sections? KanyeWestDropout (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add more to the criticism and pseudoscience section?

I feel like the majority of the first section is dedicated to criticism of the subject. Wouldn't that fit better under the criticism and pseudoscience section of the page? Especially the creationist/media organization ties KanyeWestDropout (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great spider

For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 1 September 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like to update the opening sentence in 1st paragraph: "Cryptozoology is the generally pseudoscience-following study" with "Cryptozoology is the controversial study" Nbk8zpe (talk) 13:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

THis will not get any traction, I think you need to make a very good case. Slatersteven (talk) 13:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. If I consider Popper's Falsification Principle as a way of demarcating science from non-science, then I can take a theory such as 'there exists a Loch Ness Monster' and call it scientific, if it can be be tested and conceivably proven false. With a depth of 788 feet (240 metres) and a length of about 23 miles (36 km), Loch Ness has the largest volume of fresh water in Great Britain, so it is an ongoing scientific search. So far this creature's existence not been proven to universal acceptance, however, this does not render cryptozoology false and thus pseudoscientific. Given numerous sightings from people over many years, the existence is what I would deem controversial, as those who claim to have seen the creature assert this as epistemologically true. If 'Nessy' were to be verifiably proven to exist and accepted by many people then cryptozoology is true. My point is that the choice of language here is not precise and seeks to denigrate an alternative viewpoint. Nbk8zpe (talk) 17:08, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its does if RS say it does. Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure I understand this reply. Can you kindly elaborate? What does "Its does is RS says it does" mean please? Nbk8zpe (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If wp:rs say it is pseudoscience so do we. Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia operates via a consensus of editors who agree to adhere to a set of editorial policies. Internet debating skills do not apply here. The relevant policy in this case is WP:FRINGE. . - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd settle for fringe instead of controversial. I believe have a made a reasoned suggestion in good faith for my view to be considered, however I'm not sure this is being given any logical consideration for replacement of 'pseudoscience' with 'controversial' or even 'fringe'. I'm applying philosophy of science perspective here and science does not have uniform agreement on a theory to give it treatment as an alternative position. Nbk8zpe (talk) 21:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read Cryptozoology#Criticism_and_pseudoscience and pay special attention to the footnotes. This is how the encyclopedia's editorial policies work. We go by what high quality expert sources say rather than Talk page arguments by editors. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:58, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Cannolis (talk) 19:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits

I reverted these edits that added unsourced material and contradicted sourced material. Besides the obvious WP:PROFRINGE problems, language like "a generally pseudoscience following study" is quite WP:WEASELly. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand where you're coming from; however calling all of cryptozoology pseudoscience could be misleading. While I agree that the vast majority of it is, it isn't all folklorists. Snake Enthusiast (talk) 18:10, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why? if a biologist discovers a new species its science, and will be published in academic journals. Slatersteven (talk) 18:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now some edit warring happening, claiming changing this back would be going against Wikipedia's entire purpose - neutral factual information. WP:NPOV's relationship to WP:FRINGE is often misunderstood by new editors. See WP:NOTNEUTRAL. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:25, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I wasn't aware of Wiki's take on neutrality. Snake Enthusiast (talk) 18:30, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes... but that's not what I'm saying. Not every so-called 'cryptozoologist' is making up stories about random animals they saw in the woods that are probably black bears. Some are scientists; and a handful of organisms have been discovered by investigating a 'cryptid' (which I'm sure you know as you seem to haunt this page so often); without which these organisms would likely have remained hidden for years more. Snake Enthusiast (talk) 18:25, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And when they are they cease to be cryptids, the point here is this is about the "random animals they saw in the woods that are probably black bears". Not actual biology. Slatersteven (talk) 18:29, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But then you get into the whole mess of what a cryptid is and more warring. I'll leave the page as it is, but I still think that it is heavily biased towards skepticism and needs reworking in future. Snake Enthusiast (talk) 18:31, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bottom line: we can't base Wikipedia text on personal opinions. That would be WP:OR. We go by what the majority of reliable independent sources say. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:YESBIAS. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New Hatnote: Distinguish?

Could someone please add a hatnote 'Distinguish|Cryptozoa' ? People can easily confuse the names "cryptozoology" and "cryptozoa" (undiscovered microscopic animals). I don't want to have to log in to edit the semi-protected page. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:45:403:ABC0:E50B:CCC2:4A45:5B72 (talk) 18:10, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

lider of grope krittozoologia kosmopoisk [1] 176.65.112.181 (talk) 13:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What? Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

spelling correction?

' a pseudoscientic extension of older belief in monsters and other similar entities from the folkloric record, yet with a "new, more scientific-sounding name: cryptids". '

- seems to read better with 'pseudoscientific' -

i'm not sure on this article how to suggest this possible correction ... Hirbey (talk) 18:21, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not seeing where the spelling error that needs correcting is. Slatersteven (talk) 18:25, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

pseudoscientic —> pseudoscientific. Done. Thank you, Hirbey. Bishonen | tålk 18:29, 21 December 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Really could not see it. Now I do, sorry. Slatersteven (talk) 18:55, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dendle

Dendle (2006) seems to have been quote mined. In the same "Folklore" article quoted, he also says "The point of this paper is not to disparage the important work of cryptozoologists nor to imply that there is no legitimate place for cryptozoology within contemporary zoology. The International Society of Cryptozo from 1982 to 1998), for instance, published sound research and reflection in its newsletter and in a refereed journal." For balance should we not include this as well? The implication in wiki article that he thinks it is all pseudoscience that clearly is not his position. 193.130.15.245 (talk) 11:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quote mining indeed. Folklorist Dendle goes on to say: ...There are, of course, new species that remain to be discovered, and early reports of them will naturally appear folkloric before a specimen is secured and the scientific community can verify it. My intention is rather to unpack certain facets of the social significance of the widespread interest and even belief in such creatures before they are confirmed by science. In keeping with his intention, Dendle is used in our article for his observations re the social significance and belief regarding cryptozoology, not to argue whether it, or anything else, is a pseudoscience. - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Folklore mention in lead sentence

Hi @Bloodofox, I see you reverted my update. I understand your reasoning and I don't dispute the examples in the lead or the fact that many/most cryptids are from folklore. My concern is that defining cryptids/the object of cryptozoology as "particularly those [unknown, legendary, or extinct animals] popular in folklore" is over-broad because many animals/creatures from folklore are not generally defined as cryptids. Would you be comfortable with something like "including many of those popular in folklore"? --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 16:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]