Talk:Minneapolis

Terminology

Oncamera, would you mind checking for instances of "tribe" in the article? There are two, both written before you told us about WP:Indigenous. The second one about the pharmacy and "federally recognized tribes" might be OK, but I'm not sure about the US government term. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The one with "Dakota tribes" can be changed to "Dakota bands" if you want to update it. The other is fine as it's the government term.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 19:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Oncamera, regarding the Social tensions section. Is "native" in the phrase "taught native traditions to children" correct terminology? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I changed it to "taught Native American traditions to children" so that it's clearer on the meaning.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 23:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The Dakota people are now in two paragraphs of History. I only trimmed about two sentences. I looked around and can't find another city in Wikipedia that acknowledges its Indigenous past for more than about three sentences. A sorry state of affairs. If you can figure out a better plan for Minneapolis would you implement it? For an easy example, if a paragraph break makes a difference, it should go in. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the work you've done to the page, it looks good to me.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 23:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Oncamera. Our FAR reviewer has other ideas about writing (I for one think that topic sentences and transitions can be very important, especially to unify facts like the History section). I think the topic of the second paragraph, In the space of sixty years, the US seized all of Dakota land. should be more prominent. Do you think that sentence could move, either to the end of the first para, or to the beginning of the second? I'll look for a good citation. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

It's sourced now. I'll ask where the reviewer would like it. Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

What happened to Canopy

Malvoliox, thank you for introducing and sourcing BCR. Why did you choose to erase Wikipedia's article about Canopy, a highly successful Black-owned business, and put BCR, the generic name of a bureaucratic program (that Canopy operates!), in its place? Do you have an affiliation to one of these organizations or some other in Minneapolis? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

There had been a tag on the Canopy page about notability criteria, and I looked into that a little bit more. All of the articles that had been sourced to write the original page were in reference to the program in collaboration with the City of Minneapolis' behavioral crisis program. When I did a compulsory search for neutral, secondary sources on Canopy, I saw a few pieces about their running this program with Minneapolis, but beyond business directories and their own website, nothing about the organization at large. (their website, one profile, directory listing). I understand from their website that they have an intention to form additional partnerships in providing services like this, but until there is more secondary reporting on the organization outside of this program, it seems that the notability criteria better apply to the program than the organization.

BCR, on the other hand, has been the primary subject of regular reporting, highlighted by national organizations, and significantly mentioned as an asset in the investigation of MPD.

Where similar programs exist outside of Minneapolis, there can be pages for the program but not often the organization. CAHOOTS (crisis response) in Oregon has a wiki, but the organization providing it through a contract with White Bird Clinic, which is a community-based mental health organization founded in 1969 that provides similar services across several different city and county contracts, does not. There are 5 organizations and 3 hospitals in Category:Mental health organizations in Minnesota, and the others have a very large scope, providing services across the nation/internationally (see Assistance in Recovery, Hazelden Foundation) or at least having a large number of facilities (see Meridian Behavioral Health).

I could envision both pages existing, at least if Canopy starts partnering with more other folks. At the moment, it seems more in line with the established standards to me that their story can be further expanded as a subsection. If we're sure it meets notability, a revert may make sense. I was looking at the criteria for moving pages and felt that it fell under a small enough category to go ahead with the move, but I am learning and realize I probably should've waited to have more of a conversation first. Malvoliox (talk) 14:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Our reading differs. Two of three sources you cited for BCR also discuss Canopy.[1], [2]. While I'd be happier if Canopy retained their page and BCR was added, what you've done is fine with me. So I agree that both pages can exist. We could say, for example that Canopy responders are unarmed, majority Black-owned, and offer culturally-responsive free service. I made a couple edits here. Can you approve of what this article says now? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I like that -- the emphasis on the services being free of charge & there being 4 responses are nice. Malvoliox (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Good. Thank you again for bringing in BCR. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

What happened to neighborhood association mergers

@Malvoliox: Without tax increment financing, neighborhood orgs are in trouble. This not a "super specific" handful of problem northeast neighborhoods as you wrote in your edit summary. Southwest Voices quotes the former leader of Kingfield (a southwest neighborhood): half the city’s neighborhood organizations shuttering or consolidating within three years. I'd like to see you use that article from SWVoices and develop a sentence as good as the one you removed. Can you please work on that? I agree that Susan Du's article was only reporting narrow events and agree it should be dropped. SWVoices was cleared at WP:RSN only for subject matter expertise. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Good point -- I'll look at sentence with a larger scope and put a draft in. Is [3] the article you're talking about? Malvoliox (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Wonderful! Yes, sorry, this article at SWVoices. (Notice that we don't need a delimiter inside an HTML link between URL and title.) Thanks a bunch. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@Malvoliox: The phrase "an equity-focused lens" sounds like Minneapolis talking, good job. I think you can add in the possibility of mergers somewhere around "struggled with operations". (I guess Wikipedia calls HTML links "external links", my bad.) -SusanLesch (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Malvoliox? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Added a phrase about "struggled with operations or merged with other organizations - Malvoliox (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, makes sense now. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions for revisions on demographics or government

Good morning @susanlesch, I have some bandwidth this next month and am wondering if you have anything you want added or improved to the demographics or government sections of the article. Much thanks. Svenskbygderna (talk) 14:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Svenskbygderna. Nice to hear from you, and lucky us to have some of your time.

• First in Climate, we need sources for Minneapolis has cold, snowy winters and hot, humid summers, as is typical in a continental climate. The difference between average temperatures in the coldest winter month and the warmest summer month is 58.1 °F (32.3 °C). I asked the weather WikiProject but didn't hear back.

I commented this out until there are sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• Second, we have a FAR review underway by Z1720. She appears to want to give this article a clearcut. You and I have gone back and forth before about what is essential in Demographics, so I am certain you can help. If you're feeling brave, please make any cuts you wish. (I can't promise not to revert, especially if it looks like we lost information that explains a people's situation.) Same for Government. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• I encourage some to WP:BEBOLD in cutting information, but also to revert if there is something you think should be in the article, as long as a discussion about the revert is posted below. Z1720 (talk) 21:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Susan (by the way, I recently changed my username from Svenskygderna -> Petermgrund to reflect my actual identity, so do not be alarmed). I will perhaps made a sandbox page with some suggested cuts to the demographics and government sections. I will look for some sources re: climate and let you know. Petermgrund (talk) 17:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Peter, thanks, it's always alarming to see a real user name on Wikipedia (only kidding). The entire Structural racism section will move from History to Demographics. Waiting briefly for Z1720's OK, but we can proceed boldly. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Peter, we're ready. Z1720 likes the plan. Cutting words (moving to other sections or other articles) is our goal. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Petermgrund? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Petermgrund have we lost you? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Susan,

Again, apologies. I seem to have turned off notifications for talk pages. I am going to finish work on the ethnic and racial demographics table and then begin making some cuts and adjustments to the demographics and government sections. Petermgrund (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the updated table. I moved Native down one position. My questions.

• Regarding your edit summary ("poorly sourced older statistics with more recent, better sourced values"), why would US Census figures ever be poorly sourced? Why would they ever change?
• Why do some values differ from Minneapolis to Demographics of Minneapolis?

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Petermgrund? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Notes on changes

Per Z1720, a list of changes for our records. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• Restored William Hood Dunwoody, Washburn-Crosby silent partner, who cultivated foreign markets for flour Later, cut again.
• Removed citation to company website after Perry Ellis was edited out of Munsingwear discussion
• Removed citation to Cummins company website after Cummins was edited out of Onan discussion. Then deleted Onan, the weakest in group of businesses.
• Removed extra dates throughout History. (But I added two by request from Z1720 to Water power, lumber, and flour milling, for founding years of Washburn-Crosby and General Mills. They don't fit the new pattern.) Solved by moving a year to a footnote.
• Structural racism section moved away from History to new section in Demographics. Racial covenants then moved from Social tensions to the Structural racism section.
• Restored two topic sentences.
• Restored a sentence to History, "Minneapolitans reportedly threatened more than once to attack the camp." Highest quality source. Reinforces the proximity of the fort and the city.

SusanLesch (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 June 2024

In the first section when mentioning 'Ojibwe (also known as Chippewa, members of the Anishinaabe nations)' can we add a link to the Anishinaabe main article? 67.220.22.43 (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Wracking ^talk! 16:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Number of golf courses is wrong.

The article states:

"Six golf courses are located within the Minneapolis city limits."

If you look at any map showing city limits, that is clearly wrong. There are three golf courses within Minneapolis city limits:

• Minikahda (private)
• Columbia (municipal)
• Hiawatha (municipal)

There are three other municipal courses owned and operated by Minneapolis Park & Rec, but they are all located entirely outside the Minneapolis city limits:

• Meadowbrook (located in Hopkins and St. Louis Park)
• Francis A. Gross (located in the Village of Saint Anthony)
• Theodore Wirth (located in Golden Valley)

Minneapolis Park & Rec also operates the Fort Snelling Golf course located in the unorganized territory of Fort Snelling. Gredw (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction, Gredw. If you happen to have a better reliable source, we should swap it in. What we have now is an archive from Golf Link. I will go through their list and pull out the ones that are inside city limits. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Google says Francis A. Gross Golf Club is in the city. The park board says so, too. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

More wrinkles. Golf Link doesn't recognize Hiawatha. And the park board doesn't recognize Minikahda. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Not ideal, but I went with four and used a footnote to cite them. More corrections are welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:42, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Removed the footnote and tried to blend this sentence into the paragraph. I can understand someone wondering why we say four instead of three, but Wikipedia has to go by sources. If you have a source saying Francis Gross is in a suburb, please provide it. Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

> Golf Link doesn't recognize Hiawatha.

Golf Link is not a reliable source. I would recommend ignoring it completely.

> And the park board doesn't recognize Minikahda.

Minikahda is a private course. It is not associated with the Minneapolis park board, and it's not up to the park board to "recognize" Minikahda.

> If you have a source saying Francis Gross is in a suburb, please provide it.

https://www.minneapolisparks.org/golf/courses/francis-a-gross_golf_club/

Click on the "Course Profile" tab:

Size: 149.82 acres

Neighborhood: Outside Minneapolis City Limits

Gredw (talk) 14:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see where the park board says Gross is in the city limits. Yes, Gross is owned and operated by Minneapolis Park and Rec, but it is not located within the city of Minneapolis.

Google maps clearly shows that Gross is outside the city limits:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minneapolis,+MN/@45.0058341,-93.2192504,14.42z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x52b333909377bbbd:0x939fc9842f7aee07!8m2!3d44.977753!4d-93.2650108!16zL20vMGZwendm?entry=ttu

The city limits run through the cemeteries west of the course. Gross is East of Minneapolis.

Gross is in the Village of Saint anthony:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/St+Anthony,+MN/@45.0279294,-93.2379379,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x52b32c27cc7d1821:0x789e0c13db32b9b2!8m2!3d45.0205565!4d-93.2179335!16zL20vMDEzdG5w?entry=ttu

Gredw (talk) 14:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Solved, you are right. The park board gives the address for Francis Gross as in "Minneapolis" but then says "Neighborhood: Outside Minneapolis City Limits". What source is acceptable for Minikahda? (So far I changed the municipal courses to two.) Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 14:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Is Google Maps acceptable?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minneapolis,+MN/@44.9400548,-93.325111,15.03z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x52b333909377bbbd:0x939fc9842f7aee07!8m2!3d44.977753!4d-93.2650108!16zL20vMGZwendm?entry=ttu

Gredw (talk) 15:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Not exactly but we can use it for this purpose. WP:RSP says Google Maps "is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context." I left Golf Link in for now. Thank you again for the correction from "six" which was clearly wrong. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Found a better ref, the PGA of America. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Deletions have been restored

Magnolia677, I restored the trip agents on the light rail (they aren't on a bus). I guess you're from out of town. Metro Transit was down more than 100 police officers two years ago. The presence of trip agents is a reassuring sign to those of us who depend on public transit. They are no more decorative than the men loading flour, teacher and his class, or the DID ambassador. Second, I restored the city's official name per the articles for Boston and Cleveland. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:20, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: It's wonderful you befriended some transit employees and took their photo, but this is not a personal photo gallery, and your photo is out-of-scope. The article mentions nothing about "trip agents", and there is already a photo of a Metro Blue Line train. Metro (Minnesota) would be a more encyclopedic place to add your photo. Please seek a consensus for your addition. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Magnolia677, you missed the point. MOS:IMAGES says "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context". The article says, directly to the left of this image:

Hundreds of homeless people nightly sought shelter on Green Line trains until overnight service was cut back in 2019. Short more than a hundred police officers, in 2022, the Metro Council hired community groups to help police light rail stations; these non-profits can guide passengers to mental health services and shelters.

MOS:IMAGES also tells us to improve existing photos with better captions. I'll take your suggestion to show the Green Line. Thank you for your interest. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: The article says "Metro Council hired community groups to help police light rail stations", however, your photo is of paid transit employees. Your photo does not support the text, and is decorative. Please respect WP:BRD and seek a consensus rather than edit war to add your personal pics. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Magnolia677, for the third time I repeat, Metro Transit was missing more than 100 police officers. My interest is for the safety of light rail passengers. Crime on LRTs increased 25% from 2022 to 2023, and these trip agents are a sign that something good is afoot. Wow what a change. Anecdotally, my friend was robbed on a train a couple years ago, but yesterday I passed a station where four agents were on the platform. Metro Transit took action and it shows. I don't care who takes their picture and I'm not attached to my own photo which is what seems to disturb you. Forget it.
• More research tells me these agents are new as of February 2024 (Star Tribune). They are not community service officers who started earlier, in December 2023. Nor are they Metro Transit employees. They work for Allied Universal security (CBS News). I'll do my best to update the article. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Are you prepared to respect WP:BRD and remove your out-of-scope photo until a consensus is reached? Magnolia677 (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I see no issue with this image. It directly relates to the section it's place in, and there are not too many pictures present at the moment. Seems to fit the reasoning of MOS:IMAGES. Susan, I agree that you should add another line about the paid employees to that section as well, with sourcing as you find it. glman (talk) 19:44, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, glman. I learned a lot here. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

City of Minneapolis

@Sbmeirow: Why are you selectively reverting this article? I appreciate that you've worked hard on WP:USCITIES and may have some strong feelings reflected in your edit to remove the official name of this city. Your edit summary says removed, because Wikipedia is not a LEGAL document. Nobody is making such a claim.

This is a featured article, and we only have three models of US cities with standalone names to follow: the featured articles Boston, Washington, D.C. and Cleveland. I am restoring the name of the city. A simple fact shouldn't be controversial. Please make your case that using the city's proper name is somehow a legal maneuver. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Every reference in this article that is a citation to the city has "City of Minneapolis" as the publisher. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)