Talk:Sikorsky S-42

The S-40 was the original Clipper. I think calling the S-42 Clipper is redundant.Bollar 22:37, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

There does not seem to be an entry for the S-40 yet. Since this is a unique entry I believe it would make sense to include the historic "Clipper" nicknames for the S-42.

Voila, there's now a Sikorsky S-40 page. Certainly list of all Clippers owned by PA would be cool, but I don't know how to access that without plagarising a copyrighted list. Bollar 01:40, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

The Sikorsky S-42 was the first real transoceanic flying boat- citation required

A source for this statement is needed. Other transoceanic flying boats include notables such as the Savoia Marchetti S.55, which had completed transatlantic flights years before the S-42.

The South Atlantic was crossed by a Savoia-Marchetti S.55 in 1927. A whole squadron (24) SM-55s flew the Atlantic both ways in 1933. For years afterwards "Balboa" was slang for a large formation.Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

"first real transoceanic flying boat" needs elaboration or citation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.110.1 (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

The S-42 was used for proving flights on both oceans. To do so it had to be stripped down and filled with fuel tanks in the fuselage. Only a token amount of mail could be carried.

Such operations were dangerous and resulted in the loss of the Samoan Clipper http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=2

The assertion that it was a transoceanic flying boat is questionable. To claim it as the first ignores the NC-4

Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:09, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The NC-4 only made its crossing with multiple stops (and losing three of the four aircraft making the attempt), but then there is the Dornier Wal, which made the first successful crossing (non-stop) of the South Atlantic in 1926, and the Dornier X made successful crossings of the Atlantic in 1930, all with very strong credentials, and predating the S-42.NiD.29 (talk) 01:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

True, but when I spoke with him in the mid-60s Admiral Read was still proud of the flight. Both the Wal and SM 55 required stops on the way. The South Atlantic crossing by Ramón Franco required stops at Gran Canaria and Cape Verde. When passenger operations were established with the B-314 a stop in the Azores was necessary on the southern (Winter) route. The Dixie Clipper (B-314) did fly Lisbon to NYC in 1939 but the payload was zilch. Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It was a major achievement, especially given the equipment available, and definitely something to be proud of.

Last I heard, Ireland was a part of Europe so doesn't really count as stop. The Short Empires also made the transatlantic trip, but like the S-42, were stripped down and carried extra tanks - flight reciprocity agreements between the US and the UK meant both had to have the capability so once it had been demonstrated by one, the other had to follow suit. During the war, the Empires were progressively overloaded by ever greater amounts, until just before retirement, they were carrying loads heavy enough that they could have carried passengers across the Atlantic with ease, but had been held back by overly conservative British engineering standards. Unlike the smaller Empire, the Short S.26 G class was designed for transatlantic passenger service, but was diverted to the military before it could fly - ironically, being replaced with the Boeing 314.

The two Empire boats used, Caledonia and Cambria were striped, had additional fuel tanks installed at the expense of payload, and still had had to use in-flight refueling to make the trip. The tankers were converted HP Harrow bombers. Two stationed in Labrador and one in Ireland. The Cavalier which alternated with a S-42 on the NYC-Bermuda run was shipped, not flown, to Bermuda. The two surviving G-Class boats were returned to BOAC in 1941 and were used on the West Africa and Ceylon runs.Mark Lincoln (talk) 01:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

The S-42, in passenger configuration, was incapable of flying to Hawaii or Europe. The trans-oceanic proving flights made with the S-42 were essentially stunts. In passenger configuration, but no passengers, the S-42 had a zero fuel still air range of 2,540 miles. The trans-oceanic proving flights were made with the airplane stripped of accommodations and the fuselage filled with fuel tanks. In the serious world where money had to be made flying mail and passengers, where sufficient fuel to make an alternate destination, cope with headwinds and other weather conditions was necessary, the practical range of the S-42 was around 1,200 miles.

In his address to the Royal Aeronautical Society about the S-42 Igor Sikorsky said "The final accepted report shows the performance as: . . . Range at cruising speed, sea level 1,200 miles." He compared the S-42 to the S-40 "If equal pay loads are considered, that is, 7,500lbs., the range for the S-40 is 479 miles and in the S-42 is 1,130 miles, an increase of 651 miles."

One need only ponder the services actually flown by S-42s to grasp it's capabilities as an airliner.

Pan Am was only able to start trans-Pacific operations when it had the Martin M-130. Trans-Atlantic service was not possible until the Boeing 314 arrived.

Could a modified S-42 fly either ocean? Barely. Could it do so as a working airliner? No way.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Marius Lodeesen, a Pan Am pilot who flew S-42s, wrote: "Igor Sikorsky was the first designer to try to fulfill Pan American's requirements of an aircraft that could lift enough fuel for a 2500 mile nonstop flight against a 30-mile-an-hour headwind. The result was the S-42. The airplane fell short of this requirement. Although she was used on the preliminary survey flights across the Pacific, it could only be done with the installation of cabin tanks. The S-42 performed fine service on South American costal runs and later between New York and Bermuda."

Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

aircontent

The aircontent template is somehow broken, some elements are not displayed. --87.189.121.93 (talk)

Botwood Sikorsky is not a S-42

The Sikorsky wreck at Botwood is the first VS-44 NC 41880 of the American Export Airlines which crashed on 3 October 1943.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/types/Sikorsky-VS-44/losses

http://botwood.tripod.com/aviation.html

The disposition of all S-42s is known:

S-42 NC 824M c/n 4202 Puerto Rican Clipper Crashed Port of Spain, Trinidad 11 April 1936 http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19360411-0

S-42B Pan American Clipper, Samoan Clipper S-42B NC 16734 c/n 4207 Explosion Pago Pago, Samoa 11 January 1938 http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=2

S-42 NC 15376 c/n 4206 Dominican Clipper Crashed San Juan PR 19 February 1939 http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=1

S-42 NC 15376 c/n 4206 Crashed San Juan PR 1 3 October 1941 http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=2

NC 15376 actually had 3 accidents at San Juan The other two were:

S-42 NC 15376 c/n 4206 Crashed San Juan PR 19 February 1939 http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=1

S-42 NC 15376 c/n 4206 Crashed San Juan PR 10 March 1941 http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-AIRPLANEACCIDENTS&query=(select+113

S-42 N 823M c/n 4201 West Indies Clipper, Pan American Clipper, Hong Kong Clipper Crashed Antilla, Cuba 7 August 1944 Pilot Error http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=3

S-42B NC 16736 c/n 4209 Pan American Clipper II, Bermuda Clipper Burned at dock Manus, Brazil 27 July 1943

S-42B NC 16735 c/n 4208 Bermuda Clipper, Alaska Clipper, Hong kong Clipper destroyed by Japanese Hong Kong 8 Dec. 1941

Scrapped S-42 Brazilian Clipper, Columbia Clipper NC 822M c/n 4200X scrapped 15 July 1946

S-42A Jamaica Clipper NC 15373 c/n 4203 scrapped 15 July 1946

S-42A Antilles Clipper NC 15374 c/n 4204 scrapped 15 July 1946

S-42A Brazilian Clipper NC 15375 scrapped 15 July 1946

S-42B Bermuda Clipper/Alaska Clipper/Hong Kong Clipper NC 16735 c/n 4208 scrapped 15 July 1946

Mark Lincoln (talk) 02:38, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, the only citation for the claim that Botwood had an S-42 wreck was a Labrador newspaper article which was quoting a member of a local aircraft wreck recovery group. He didn't seem to know specifics of the wreck and was likely either confused or ignorant about the actual aircraft type. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 03:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

One S-42 did operate through Botwood on a North Atlantic proving flight.

btw, there is a second flying boat sunk off Botwood. It is a RCAF Canso (Catalina).

The S-42 was not developed from the S-40

The S-42 was not developed from the S-40. That assertion is entirely wrong. Sikorsky himself made that clear. Read his words on the matter at: http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-42.php The S-42 was developed because of the S-40s shortcomings.

To base an article on a single source is dubious. Especially when that source is a biography. Biographies often tend to hagiography.

The S-42 was a very important airplane for Pan Am. It replaced the Commodore on the South American and Caribbean services. It was used for trans-oceanic proving flights.

The spread of good runways across the world negated the reason for flying boats.

Basil Rowe preferred it to the S-40.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

For anyone interested

For a glimpse at what it was like to travel by S-42 jn the thirties try Hudson Stroude's "South by Thunderbird", Random House, 1937. There is even a S-42 on the cover.

Never mind the fact that the subject of photo #23, labeled "thunderbird rounding Sugar Loaf, Rio de Janeiro" is a Commodore. Photo #27 is a S-42.

For a pilots eye account of flying Pan Am's boats try "Captain Lodi Speaking" by Marius "Lodi" Lodeesen. Argonaut Press, Suttons Bay, Michigan, 1984. "Here is an absolutely superb book, certainly the most true-to-life and sincereaccount of a pilot's life." - Horace Brock former Chief Pilot, Pan American Airways

Lodi said that the S-42 was a notorious waterlooper. Considering the accident reports, he was right. Mark Lincoln (talk) 18:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

p.s. While landing at Dinner Key at the end of the S-40's maiden trip Lindbergh waterlooped it.

The Flying Boat which made the most crossings.

The Navy flew the XPB2Y from from Argentia Newfoundland to Straner, Scotland in Sept. 1941. Later USN PB2Y-3Rs were operated on trans-Atlantic service from NYC to Sandy Bay, Lough Neagh in Northern Ireland. PB2Y-3Rs made 538 crossings in the Summer of 1944. Service extended to Port Lyaute, Morocco. The crews were Pan Am & AOA.

The RAF 231 Squadron also flew the Atlantic using 10, later 12 Coronados. They operated Boucherville/Montreal to Largs, Scotland via either Botwood or Gander. Westbound they had to refuel in Iceland. The RAF made 169 North Atlantic crossings and 51 on the South Atlantic route.

The last RAF Coronado left Largs for Montreal 25 September 1945.

I do not know how many Catalina crossings were made (mostly deliveries to Britain).

If the question is what four-engined flying boat ruled the North Atlantic the answer is the Coronado.

There is a PB2Y-3R at the National Naval Aviation Museum aboard NAS Pensacola, Florida.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 02:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

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