Talk:Flanging

Comparison with phasing

Seems to be the "Comparison with Phasing" section is rather wrong-headed (or perhaps just rather pedantically obtuse): Flanging is created not by a "uniform phase shift" but by applying a *time delay* to the signal (classically, with tape flanging, by physically slowing the tape down on one reel, or in solid state electronics, by putting the signal through a bucket brigade delay line. This gives a DIFFERENT phase shift to each component of the frequency spectrum, not a uniform one.--feline1 15:35, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

: Re: pedantically obtuse [sic]": The word you want here is "obscure". Unless you're referencing geonetry, "obtuse" means "stupid". TheScotch (talk) 07:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Two points

1. the signals don't have to be in opposite phase. In fact I believe they're usually in phase.
2. "According to one story, the effect was given its name by none other than Beatle John Lennon in the early 1960s."

Actually, the way HE told it to Kenny Everett in an interview was that he asked producer George Martin how it was done, and Martin bullshitted him with a complicated technical explanation involving "sprocket flanges". Lee M

George Martin &/or John Lennon may well have used the word "flange" in connection with the Ken Townsend ADT technique, but ADT is NOT the same thing as the flanging we're talking about here, & introducing the subject of ADT in this context is just likely to confuse an already terminologically-inexact area.

duncanrmi (talk) 07:03, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

oh, & also- not a single mention here or in the article of "through zero". duncanrmi (talk) 23:04, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Comparison with Phasing

This section seems to contradict itself. Is flanging a type of phasing, or isn't it? Josh Cherry 04:02, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Auch this page always has been a bit of a dog's dinner, written by muppets who don't really know what they're talking about :-)

If you define 'phasing' as 'swept-comb-filtering, where the resonance peaks in the filter can have any relation to each other', then 'flanging' is that specific subset of phasing where the resonance peaks are in a linear harmonic series.

Some of the confusion arises because this rather academic definition was only dreamt up years after the effects were developed:

the original "tape flanging" is, by that definition, a mixture of flanging and phasing components (which is why it sounds so great) - the subsequent generation of solid state FX boxes which tried to emulate tape flanging in a more convenient & practical way were either pure "phasers" (LFO-swept re-circulting all-pass phase shift filters) or pure "flangers" (LFO-swept recirculating bucket-brigade delay line devices)

Nowadays software implementations have reblurred and blended the distinctions all over again.

--feline1 07:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not just playback

It isn't created by playing to tape machines in sync. It is created by having to tape machines RECORDING the signal onto tape, then taking mixing the output of the playback heads (located after the recording head) together. Thus keeping in sync is dead easy. Of course, one might be plying at a slightly different speed than the other, but that is exactly what you want. The point is that when you flange it, you slow it down, but the moment you let go, it immediately speeds up again. If it were a pure playback thing, the second machine would just keep going slower and slower until you had an echo, not a phasing effect.

I am updating the original article to explain this better.

Thanks for contributing. Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 08:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Short Wave Radio

This phasing distortion was frequently encountered by short-wave radio enthusiasts, when varying ionospheric delays cause the two side-bands of an AM signal go in and out of phase. In fact the characteristic sound was known as the "shortwave effect" for decades before the term "flanging" became established.

Gutta Percha (talk)

Recordings with a prominent flanging effect

Isn't the intro of "Have a Cigar" by Pink Floyd actualy phase shifting?

I am not sure, but there are way too many entries on that list. Can somebody pare them down, or else I will? Otherwise we could get rid of the section entirely. --Guinnog 08:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I like having the list. It could help someone who has heard of flanging, but is not sure they have heard flanging. What criteria would you suggest for paring? I think one entry per musician/band would be reasonable, but I think there's only one per band now. Some of the entries have more information than others (not just song name), which make them perhaps better - keep only those? Doctormatt 05:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

These lists tend to become full of fan-cruft, they need ruthless pruning.--feline1 09:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, but I ask again: what should be the criteria for pruning? Would sorting, instead of pruning, help? Say, by decade, or by instrument? There is always the option of making a separate article. Doctormatt 16:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I reordered the list with the more specific examples first, in case someone wants to prune the less specific ones. Doctormatt 20:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The List of recordings with a prominent flanging effect has been moved to a new page because it was too long and tending to violate Wikipedia's "no lists" rule. It was not really adding to an understanding of the subject, as some of the recordings in it are quite obscure.--Ianmacm 22:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Blue Jay Way Standard flanging

There's good evidence that Blue Jay Way was flanged using an oscillator to control the speed of the pinch wheel, not by the "engineer pressing the tape flange". Physically pressing the tape to slow it down may have been done but at EMI (and presumably other major studios) they used an oscillator.

Personally, I suspect that pressing the flange wheel would have been a pretty unlikely way of changing the speed - professional tape recorders operate at 15 or 30 ips, that's pretty fast to start sticking a finger on it!

Apepper 23:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this good evidence? If so you can correct the article. On the other hand, I think that use of "standard" is unclear: the word is used nowhere else on the page. I think it should be deleted (just the word "standard"). That would eliminate this possible error about the exact method of flanging. What do you think? Cheers, Doctormatt 00:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to check the wording, but in the "Complete Beatles Recording History" the junior tape operator on the recording complained that he spent hours twiddling the the frequency knob to produce ADT on [I'm pretty sure] Blue Jay Way.

What I'm not clear on is if there's a citation for pressing the flange wheel - I used to have a semi-pro tape recorder that operated at 15 IPS and pressing the flange wheel to adjust the speed would seem a good way to lose a finger!

Apepper 18:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I've had a look at the complete recording sessions and I've removed the Blue Jay Way reference and replaced it with Tomorrow Never Knows which was the first Beatles track to use flanging (ADT) - in April 1966. Blue Jay Way used ADT more but 18 months later.

Great - thanks for looking into that. Could you add a citation for that? This article badly needs more (any!) citations. Cheers, Doctormatt 20:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I've added the citation - and a Notes section to encourage others.

Apepper 20:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Manually altering the playback (or record) speed of the machines at abbey road would indeed have been difficult to achieve by dragging on the reel flanges, particularly at 30ips; though there is some likelihood that the technique was origially achieved this way by whomever did it first, by the time the Beatles were experimenting with tape-recorder manipulation as a part of their creative processes, the engineers at abbey road were already working on a varispeed system for the big studer decks, so that (e.g.) vocal & drum parts could more easily be retuned. there are references to this in geoff emerick's account, in brian kehew's mighty tome on the beatles' recording equipment & in various other beatles reference books (lewisohn, mcdonald et al). duncanrmi (talk) 07:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Question

Didn't Joe Satriani use a flanger in part of the song "satch boogie"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.82.17.253 (talk • contribs)

Original Research, No Citations, Weasel Words

I've flagged the Artificial Flanging section and sub-sections, and several sentences in them, for original research, lack of citations, and weasel words.--166.70.188.26 (talk) 18:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Barber Pole?

Unless I've misunderstood, I think that what's described as "barber pole flanging" here is actually phasing and should be moved to that article. It is an effect related to the perceived one-directional motion of the phase sweep; but in flanging there is no sweep, only a uniform phase effect. Am I missing something? Aiwendil42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.36.179.228 (talk) 19:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are, but only on some descriptive elements relating to the sound of the effect.(Or maybe getting too much irrelevent info.) (Those of you that just want to know the diff between phasing and flanging, please skip down to "meat and potatoes" below)The story of the "discovery" and first use of flanging in the recording studio is historically significant, but has invited many opinions and misinformed comments, which have only added to the confusion surrounding the nuts-and-bolts description of the sonic and electrical characteristics of the effect. A phase sweep of one-directional motion would only occur once, passing up or down through the audio spectrum until inaudibly high or low in frequency. A "uniform phase effect" with "no sweep", is simply a filter in the audio domain, like a single slider on a graphic EQ set and not touched. "Barber pole flanging" puts the signal through a delay, then feeds it back into itself while shortening the delay time each cycle, causing each echo repeat to get higher in pitch. Flanging was once created by causing a very tiny difference in the speed of two tape machines playing the same program at the same time, but a few years after that it was done electronically. The potentially disastrous effect on a recording that could easily occur using the "thumb-on-the-reel" meant that only fools or daredevils in the studio attempted it once electronic delay units hit the market.

Here's the meat-and potatoes breakdown:

Flanging is created by putting the signal through a delay, which has its delay time slowly modulated from about 4 ms to 15ms, with a modulation cycle taking between 1/4 second and 10 seconds to complete. This is partially fed back into itself("resonance"adjustment on many units)by an adjustable amount.Then, the delayed output is mixed, or superimposed, in-phase(or out-of-phase, if preferred)with the original dry signal, resulting in additive and cancelling interaction which reduces some evenly spaced frequencies in a slow sweep cadence up and down in frequency across several octaves. The effect is "time-based" in circuit characteristics. A typical flanger circuit has about 100 times more semiconductor (transistor) junctions in it than a phaser circuit.

Phasing is created by passing the signal through several filters, all of which alter the phase slope of the sinewave, and how much the phase angle is altered is slowly modulated, with a cycle taking between 1/4 second and 10 seconds or so to complete. The shifted phase angle is best understood in simple terms likened to a delay of less than 1/4 of one Hz(at sonic frequencies, say, 3000 for example, $1/3000*1/4=dt$=1/12,000th of a second) of the frequency(very, very short-measured in nanoseconds). Heard by itself, it would have no effect, but mixed back in-phase with the dry signal, the altered phase slope band causes harmonic addition and cancellation interaction. The more filter stages, the more pronounced the effect. Remember, the phase shift was likened to a super short delay for discussion purposes only-this is not how the shift is created in the circuit. A phaser circuit is rather simple compared to time-based effects, as most(time-based)use digital conversion and memory circuits. A phaser does not. Sonically, it is a negative gain wah-wah circuit, with the pedal automatically going slowly up and down. A wah circuit is a narrow band midrange boost, with the pedal position determining where in the audio spectrum that boost frequency is centered(spectrum of guitar audio frequencies, of course). A phaser circuit does the same thing, except that it attenuates a narrow band of midrange frequencies instead of boosting them (and automatically moves the "pedal")--SplinterHead (talk) 00:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

First Usage

Miss Toni Fisher singing "The Big Hurt" in the late 1950's is often credited with the first commercial recording of the effect, but I couldn't find any citable references. -anon-

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 20:32, 22 May 2012 (UTC)