Talk:Battle of Suomussalmi

New Analysis Dot

I added a small bit of information to the analysis, only to give a more full understanding of the various factors leading to Finnish success. Let me know if you have any problems.

-Jclingerman (4/25/06) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclingerman (talk • contribs) 07:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Casualties

Hi,

Just some notices. Soviets lost more than 40 000 troops in this battle. Only 5000 out of 48 000 men of the 9th Army made it back to Soviet Union. Two divisions (163rd and 44th) and one ski brigade were totally destroyed.

The battle was a great humiliation to the mighty Red Army which had not gone trough this kind of defied before. And as much it was humiliation for RA it was a glorious victory for Finnish Defence Forces.

Best wishes,

OJ from Finland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.241.194.70 (talk) 21:39, 23 February 2004 (UTC)

Ski brigade?? Tank brigade is right, I think... Cinik 62.209.237.4 08:25, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please provide sources for those numbers. - FireForEffect - 18:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The number of Soviet losses has no relation to reality and is a propaganda myth. Real soviet casualties - 2303 dead and 3868 missing. http://slon-76.livejournal.com/97558.html 178.70.151.125 (talk) 13:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Clean up

I just cleaned up the grammer a bit in the Battle section. I do not believe I changed anything of what the author intended to say. I think that the word 'trace' is not what was intended, but could not figure out what should be there. Also, there is mention of the Finns destroying a village. Is this Raat? It is not clear from the text. PerlKnitter 15:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Trouble with casualty numbers

Can anyone find verifiable sources for the casualties? The amount of soviet dead was just changed from 16000-35000 to c. 22500 - which seems somewhat suspicious, but I can find even fewer sources for the former numbers than for the latter (though one refers to it as a conservative estimate). Additionally, the article currently cites Finnish losses as 350 KIA, which seems a bit low, and some reports I've found speak of about 900 with over a thousand wounded. It's true enough that specific figures for the Soviet side are not available, due to the circumstances. --Kizor 00:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

This link http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Suomussalmi2.htm gives 5000 killed or wounded for the Soviets not 27K and gives this for the Finns 350 KIA, 600 wounded and 70 missing —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.249.112.176 (talk) 02:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Sorry, but link http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Suomussalmi2.htm gives not this! He gives 5000 bodies, that was found in area Suomussalmi-Alassalmi 1)this area is full deep forrest - many bodies was not found 2) this is not all area of battle 3) this is only tail battle - without battle on Raate road, diferent from this article. On Raateroad was totaly destroyed 44th division and 21th tank brigade. Cinik 09:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a quotation from the book "A Frozen Hell: The Russo-Finnish War of 1939-1940" - "Daylight revealed a scene that staggered the senses of even the most battle-wise correspondents who were brought in to see and photograph it. From the high-water mark of the 163rd Division, up at Piispajarvim to the last burned out truck between Raate village and the Soviet border, were scattered the stone-stiff bodies of 27,500 Russian soldiers. Forty-three tanks and 270 other vehicles, trucks, tractors, and prime moviers clotted the narrow road or lay, windscreens spiderwebbed with bullet holes and turrets blackened by fire, in the snowy morass of roadside ditches. The victors acquired substantial booty: 4 dozen pieces of artillery, 600 working rifles, 300 functional machine guns, a few mortars and salvageable tanks, and a motley but welcome assortment of trucks and armoured cars. Finnish losses amounted to 900 dead and 1770 wounded.

I think this book is more accurate than the website that has been linked to above. Therefore, I am going to change the casualties to (note: although the book does mention captured Soviets, it doesn't mention how many. I am putting 2,100 because it seems like a reasonable amount):

Soviet: 27,500 dead, 2,100 captured, 43 tanks destroyed Finnish: 900 dead, 1770 wounded

If anyone has any problems with this please let me know.

One last thing, I have to go now, so I'll edit the figures when I get back. - FireForEffect - 16:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, if you have a problem with these numbers and you have a credible source, post it here. Do not edit the numbers without first posting here. - FireForEffect - 19:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So we decided to abandon Russian sources for Russian losses? Also, the 43 "tanks" includes even Komsomolets tractors. 69.165.233.6 (talk) 17:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

WW II

Winter War is often acepted as part of WWII. Soviet Union was ally of Germany in this time an his expansion is part of WWII. And factor, that somebody do not agree with this, is not relevant reason for displacing this article from category, who somebody was this article search. Cinik 14:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I need sources. Winter War currently stands as a contemporary war to World War II. Until that changes, we can't change any of the battles. Oberiko 16:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Change

I wrote "Soviet army being poorly equipped for winter warfare" because they were better equipped in almost every other aspect than winter clothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irtehprwn (talk • contribs) 18:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

And the sources of course are from your ass, as always Shipseggsbasket (talk) 18:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Leave the oroginal (Shipseggsbasket's version) because your citation hasn't references. MOJSKA 666 (msg) 19:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think Finnish were too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.94.243.68 (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I have change the link Raate to Battle of raate road. It was linked to some Indian movie. Sebastian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.22.117 (talk) 12:27, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Soviet casualties poor source

Are we seriously not using Russian sources for Russian casualties? Estimates from the opposing force (not like those are known for notorious exaggerations, right?) made in 1940-1970s are somehow superior to contemporary research, based on the opening of Soviet archives in the 1990s, because we have lots of books supporting each other? Contemporary Russian historiography gives much smaller numbers for Soviet casualties in the battle. For example, the above quoted Oleg Kiselev claims 6171 killed and missing (this number includes prisoners of war), 4001 wounded and around 2800 non-combat casualties (mostly from the elements) - some 12 000 overall, with about half of them dead. I suggest editing the infobox accordingly. Mudriy zmei (talk) 01:25, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Soviet units. Strength and casualties.

1. Soviet units. Number of men in divisions and casualties. Source: Article by Oleg Kiselev. http://raatteentie.heninen.net/sotatapahtumat/klio.htm

1.1 Number of men in divisions (including engineers, medics, etc.)

Strength of the 163rd Division is taken as the sum of the strength of the 163rd Division as of 30 November (12,762) and 1 battalion of the 305 Regiment of the 44th Division (800), which had been attached to the 163rd Division since mid-December. The 47th Corps units strength is taken as the difference between the total strength of 163 Division and Corps units (16,000) and that of 163 Division (12,762). The strength of the 44th Division is taken as the difference between the number of the 44th Division personnel as of 7th December (16,716) and the number of personnel of 2/305th regiment and its reconnaissance battalion (1,000) assigned to the Reboly sector, as well as the number of units that did not participate in the battle on the Raate road from 1st January to 7th January (3,500) and 1/305/44th Division (800), which returned to the 44th Division only on 9th January. The strength of the 3d NKVD regiment: There is probably a typo in the text of the article. " It is known that by the end of January 9, 850 of the regiment's 1,500 soldiers and commanders were on the Soviet side. Thus, the maximum number of irrecoverable losses of the regiment was up to 750 men. " I think it should have been written 1,600, not 1,500.

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В результате передачи численность 163-й СД уменьшилась до 12762 человек. В этом составе дивизия и перешла границу 30 ноября 1939 года. [..] К ним также следует добавить 1-й батальон 305-го стрелкового полка (около 800 человек), который в середине декабря был направлен на усиление 163-й СД и действовал в её составе. Тем не менее, этот батальон вернулся в состав 44-й СД уже 9-10 января и принял участие в заключительных боях на дороге Раате. [..] Таким образом, общая численность 163-й СД, корпусных частей и подразделений усиления составляла не 23 тысячи человек, а максимум 15,5-16 тысяч. [..] 44-я СД по состоянию на 7 декабря имела в своем составе 16716 человек. [..] Однако следует учитывать, что разведывательная рота и 2-й батальон 305-го стрелкового полка (всего около 1000 человек) были выделены из состава дивизии и направлены на ребольское направление. [..] Общую численность подразделений, не участвовавших в боях на дороге Раате 1-7 января или участвовавших в них незначительными силами, можно оценить приблизительно в 3,5 тысячи человек. [..]

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Сведения о потерях советских войск по Суомуссалми были бы не полными, если бы в статистику не были включены потери 3-го полка НКВД. К сожалению, подробных сведений о его потерях в распоряжении автора не имеется. Известно, что к исходу 9 января из 1,5 тыс. бойцов и командиров полка на советской стороне находилось 850 человек. Таким образом, максимальные безвозвратные потери полка составили до 750 человек. Если рассматривать боевые потери полка в тех же пропорциях, что и потери 44-й дивизии, то они могли составлять примерно 1100-1150 человек (из расчета, что безвозвратные потери составляли 66% боевых потерь). Здесь необходимо учитывать, что данные о не вернувшихся к 9 января могли быть завышенными (люди могли возвращаться и после этой даты). Кроме того, не совсем ясно, 850 вышедших человек уже включают раненных, больных и обмороженных, или нет. Поэтому указанные потери являются максимально возможными.

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1.2 Casualties

See above: "The information on Soviet losses at Suomussalmi would not be complete if the statistics did not include losses of the 3rd NKVD Regiment. Unfortunately, the author has no detailed information on its losses at his disposal." (2014)

Battle on the Raate road. Oleg Kiselev (2019), time - 1:11:33

3rd NKVD Regiment: 14 killed, 137 wounded, 100** missing, 251 total (** - Estimates)

3-й полк НКВД: Убито 14, Ранено 137, Без вести 100**, Всего 251 (** - Данные расчетные)

The data is the same as in Table 11, in the 2014 article, except for the 3rd NKVD Regiment. With corrections, total losses 12,073. The number of killed is taken as the sum of the number of killed and the number of missing, minus those taken prisoner of war (1,800*). Frostbite - "category of non-combat casualties - sick and partially frostbitten" (2800). * - "According to Finnish figures, about 500 men were taken prisoner during the battle for Suomussalmi in December, and another 1,300 were taken prisoner on the Raate road." ("Согласно финским данным, в боях за Суомуссалми в декабре было взято в плен около 500 человек, и еще 1300 человек было взято в плен на дороге Раате.") CypressL (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

A few questions

Hi @Betelgeuse X

Explain the reason for removing information from the article, the published source (Kisilev 2014) corresponds to the parameters WP:RS you also deleted another book with him (Aptekar) It is also interesting to know the reason. The text of the infbox is an outright lie, the specified source (Chew 1981) nowhere does he mention that the death toll corresponds to 22,500, which is an outright lie: A conservative Finnish estimates put the combined Russian losses at 22,500 men. The text itself was also analyzed by Kisilev, here is the conclusion: However, already in 1971, one of the classic Western works on the history of the Soviet-Finnish war was published – "The White Death: the Epic of the Soviet-Finnish Winter War", written by American historian Allen Chew. In it, the author, with reference to the still unpublished work of Kalewi Usva. He learned, announced the figures he had deduced (22.5 thousand – losses of the 163rd and 44th divisions, as well as the 3rd regiment of the NKVD, including about 1300 prisoners). By unreasonably deleting information, you are violating WP:NPOV in particular WP:BESTSOURCES. In principle, Chew himself doubts the reliability of the figures, especially falls under WP:RSAGE, so we can remove it from the infbox and leave Kisilev's final numbers. Dushnilkin (talk) 17:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Nothing about that is a lie. Fairly obvious he's talking about KIA: "The enemy dead could not even be counted because of the snow drifts that covered the fallen and the wounded who had frozen to death. A conservative Finnish estimate put the combined Russian losses (the 163d and 44th Divisions, plus the 3d NKVD Regiment) at 22,500 men."

And it appears that you don't understand what a "published source" actually means. A blog post is not one. Betelgeuse X (talk) 19:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

1: These are just your guesses, he specifically uses the term "losses" to denote the overall loss as a result of the fighting, the first text is a completely different sentence, which is written in order to notice a large number of dead.

2: I repeat, this is not a blog, etc., but a major project that belongs to another popular magazine.[1]

If you have nothing more to say and you still intend to continue deleting, then I will request WP:RFC Dushnilkin (talk) 19:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Besides, the source has been published in several popular scientific publications at once, it already refutes your claim that this is a blog.[2] Dushnilkin (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Your source is a post on a personal website. This does not qualify as a published source. What part of this isn't making sense to you? Since you still haven't bothered to read WP:RS, I'll paste this here:

"Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs), content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, most wikis and other collaboratively created websites."

And attaching a year next to the citation to make it look like a published source doesn't actually make it a published source, though it does violate WP:LIE that you alluded to earlier. If that author has published his work in a journal like you say he has, then use that as your source.

Now that I look into it, multiple books state the range of Soviet losses to be between 22,500 and 27,000. The words "killed" and "losses" are used interchangeably, so I'm fine with updating the infobox to use these as casualty figures instead of KIA.

Finnish Soldier vs Soviet Soldier: Winter War 1939–40, David Campbell: "Soviet losses were put at between 22,500 and 27,000".

Reporting the Second World War, Brian Best: "It resulted in the Russians losing about 27,000 dead, 2,100 captured and 43 tanks taken". Betelgeuse X (talk) 09:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

1: Why are you cheating, it is not indicated anywhere that both sites belong to the author of the article, you took it literally from nothing, the second link says that the original text of the article was published in the magazine КЛИО[3] the editor-in-chief of which is a completely different person. I can understand your mistake, because obviously you don't speak Russian, but if you continue to claim that this is a personal blog, then it will be an outright lie. I will also provide a link directly in the journal, the mentioned work is on pages 109-121. [4]

2: You write: And attaching a year next to the citation to make it look like a published source doesn't actually make it a published source, though it does violate WP:LIE that you alluded to earlier. If that author has published his work in a journal like you say he has, then use that as your source. I will ask you to at least open what they write to you in the future, the title of the article begins with the words: The article with a full set of links to sources and literature on the topic was first published in the magazine "CLIO", 2014, No. 9. We offer you a revised author's version.

3: Of course, we should add this data to the article, but since the spread is too large (obviously, irretrievable losses do not correlate with the general ones), then for this we need to create a separate substate, as I did. In general, since the source originally indicated is Allen whose, I will ask you to find his book "The White Death: the Epic of the Soviet-Finnish Winter War" (1971) and see what he writes there. Since we have figured it out, at least I think I have explained everything very clearly, then you will no longer delete my sources, this is a violation of WP:NPOV.

P.S I may be wrong, so I won't confirm it yet, but the data that includes only those who died when accounting WP:RSAGE may violate WP:ONUS. Dushnilkin (talk) 10:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I have updated the article and also included data from the sources you mentioned, please add a page to Campbell 2016 and design the second source according to the standards of others sources their and add it to the article as well. Dushnilkin (talk) 19:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I've added a page number for Campbell and the source from Brian Best. Betelgeuse X (talk) 09:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I've also done some slight rewording of the text. Betelgeuse X (talk) 09:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I am glad that we have reached a consensus. Dushnilkin (talk) 09:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)